8 ms·

When you do share it try not to get discouraged if no one looks at it, is dismissive of it or even becomes inflammatory of you sharing your own creation. Kind

by sosuke 10y ago

When you do share it try not to get discouraged if no one looks at it, is dismissive of it or even becomes inflammatory of you sharing your own creation. Kind of like an extension of the quote: "Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats."

moron4hire 10y ago
I think if people are ignoring you, it's a signal that you're not making something people care about. In contrast, negative criticism is a signal that you're working on something people care about, you've just not figured out either the product or the marketing message correctly. Universally positive feedback is probably a sign that nobody is paying attention, but they like you for some reason--either you're a celebrity or you're new and people think you're brave just for trying. Negative criticism is probably the only useful criticism you're likely to get. Few people will bother with posting a positive, even-minded critique of a project. So hang on to those "haters." They're the ones you need to care about the most.
- johnwheeler 10y ago
  > I think if people are ignoring you, it's a signal that you're not making something people care about. Not necessarily. This is the third time I posted this story on HN (HN allows a small number of reposts), and who knows why it got ignored the first two times. It could have been timing. It might have been the title and organization of my content, which I tweaked on subsequent submissions. I've never submitted anything that had universally positive feedback, so I wouldn't know what to make of that, but negative criticism isn't necessarily worth much if it isn't constructive. And, even constructive criticism needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's likely to have a lot more weight if it's coming from someone who has been where you want to go; otherwise, it needs to be scrutinized for motive and value. (i.e. sometimes people are looking for validation themselves, and criticism is a cheap way of throwing things out there and getting feedback).
  - overcast 10y ago
    From your history this looks like the fourth time you've submitted this article, all within the past week. You're providing a neat service, but ramming it down the submission queue is not the way to go about it.
    - sjcsjc 10y ago
      Apparently it is.
      - moron4hire 10y ago
        It's a strategy that only works in the very short term before the HN algorithm detects spammy behavior and starts to shadowban or slowban you.
        TeMPOraL 10y ago
        [citation needed] Did anyone here actually figured out if repeat posting in reasonable amount will actually trigger anti-spam measures?
        gk1 10y ago
        From the moderator: > If a story hasn't had significant attention in about the last year, reposts are ok. That's been the policy for a while, but we've brought the software closer to it. It will still reject reposts for a few hours, though, to avoid stampedes. Allowing reposts is a way of giving high-quality stories multiple chances at making the front page. Please do this tastefully and don't overdo it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645
        moron4hire 10y ago
        Yeah, "Please do this tastefully and don't overdo it." Submitting your own article four times just because it didn't get the attention you wanted doesn't really fit into that. If I was stupid and submitted an article in the low traffic hours and it got no comments or upvotes, I sometimes consider reposting (though frequently I just pass). If I post during high time and it gets no attention, no way, it had its chance, it's a dud, time to go do something new.
- ant6n 10y ago
  Positive feedback can be very motivating. If it helps you keep going, it can be very useful.
  - moron4hire 10y ago
    I understand that, but building a project is usually a long, dark, lonely path. If you really want to succeed, you have to learn to do it without attaboys. Take them if/when they come, but don't expect them. If you really believe what you're working on is important, you're going to have to learn how to slog.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  I'm not so sure negative criticism is always useful. First Dropbox attempt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software." "The only problem is that you have to install something." I don't think these things really inhibited Dropbox from taking off.
  - moron4hire 10y ago
    No, those criticisms probably fundamentally shaped Dropbox's marketing message, if not also informing them of where to take their product. When people post negative criticism, it's because they find the topic important. They find it important enough to evaluate your product. You have to ask yourself whether or not their criticism has any grain of truth to it. And regardless of the answer, it's very important information. If the answer is, "they don't understand what I'm trying to do," then you've failed at marketing. Your message is garbled and it needs work. There's no such thing as "if you build it, they will come." That movie was about a literal miracle. You need marketing and you need to get good at it. If the answer is, "they don't understand how early the product is", then their criticism is probably based on a valid reason (expressed poorly) and you probably released too early or with too many features. Minimum Viable Product is about what is viable, not what meets your vision. Either your broken features are necessary and you released too early, or they are not and you need to cut them completely. Better to have no feature than a broken one that makes people bitch at you. That only leaves, "yes, I recognize that their criticism is based on a valid reason (expressed poorly)". You can pretty much count on people being poor communicators 90% of the time. So your choice becomes to let their failings as a communicator push you into discounting what they have to say--and thereby harming your product--or ignore the packaging and focus on the message--and make a better product for it.
    - bjt 10y ago
      Much criticism is also explained by "they feel threatened by this".
- jakobegger 10y ago
  Positive feedback is really important because it keeps you going. Without positive feedback you'll give up. Negative feedback is important because it tells you what you are doing wrong. It can be really hard to swallow, and my first response is usually to dismiss it for some reason. But if you try hard to understand why that person thinks that your product is crap, you'll almost always find a sensible reason, and a way to improve it.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> "Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." Personally I believe that if you have something original and the idea gets "stolen", you should be proud of yourself. You've just done something good for the world[0]. What really matters for humanity is that something was done, not who did it, and especially not who did it first. [0] - assuming the idea itself isn't evil.
- swalsh 10y ago
  This sounds nice in theory, and perhaps if we lived in a different type of society that would even be true. We don't though, we live in the world where our rewards are tied to our accomplishments. those rewards are the incentives for us to do the work, it might not be 100% of the incentive, but it's a large part. Of course, if someone steals your idea, but wins the race, they're probably executing better. That's capitalism, that's the beauty of competition. First mover advantage is often a disadvantage. You have to pay for all the mistakes. If you're an established player, you can afford it. If you're brand new though, you might not be able to.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    True. I understand the emotional impact of ideas too - every time I see someone executing on something I spent time thinking about, I feel as if I've just lost hit points. That said, I try to promote a more global view on things, because as a society, we're in dire need of more of that. Self-centered view is easy to have.
  - pjlegato 10y ago
    That's not just capitalism; that's all systems. If you had a great new idea in the Soviet Union, for example, do you suppose you would be just given the resources necessary to execute it well? Of course not, and moreover the incumbent solutions were a lot better positioned to crush your novel way of doing things in order to protect their own positions than the incumbents are under capitalism.
    - 10y ago
vorg 10y ago
> if no one looks at it, is dismissive of it, or even becomes inflammatory of you sharing your own creation, ... people stealing an idea Far more likely than people stealing an idea is attacks by the people with vested interests in something else threatened by the idea. If someone's inflammatory of you, perhaps they're "useful idiots" being prodded by other parties trying to kill off what you're doing by discouraging you.

by sosuke 10y ago

moron4hire 10y ago

I think if people are ignoring you, it's a signal that you're not making something people care about. In contrast, negative criticism is a signal that you're working on something people care about, you've just not figured out either the product or the marketing message correctly. Universally positive feedback is probably a sign that nobody is paying attention, but they like you for some reason--either you're a celebrity or you're new and people think you're brave just for trying. Negative criticism is probably the only useful criticism you're likely to get. Few people will bother with posting a positive, even-minded critique of a project. So hang on to those "haters." They're the ones you need to care about the most.

johnwheeler 10y ago
> I think if people are ignoring you, it's a signal that you're not making something people care about. Not necessarily. This is the third time I posted this story on HN (HN allows a small number of reposts), and who knows why it got ignored the first two times. It could have been timing. It might have been the title and organization of my content, which I tweaked on subsequent submissions. I've never submitted anything that had universally positive feedback, so I wouldn't know what to make of that, but negative criticism isn't necessarily worth much if it isn't constructive. And, even constructive criticism needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's likely to have a lot more weight if it's coming from someone who has been where you want to go; otherwise, it needs to be scrutinized for motive and value. (i.e. sometimes people are looking for validation themselves, and criticism is a cheap way of throwing things out there and getting feedback).
- overcast 10y ago
  From your history this looks like the fourth time you've submitted this article, all within the past week. You're providing a neat service, but ramming it down the submission queue is not the way to go about it.
  - sjcsjc 10y ago
    Apparently it is.
    - moron4hire 10y ago
      It's a strategy that only works in the very short term before the HN algorithm detects spammy behavior and starts to shadowban or slowban you.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        [citation needed] Did anyone here actually figured out if repeat posting in reasonable amount will actually trigger anti-spam measures?
      - gk1 10y ago
        From the moderator: > If a story hasn't had significant attention in about the last year, reposts are ok. That's been the policy for a while, but we've brought the software closer to it. It will still reject reposts for a few hours, though, to avoid stampedes. Allowing reposts is a way of giving high-quality stories multiple chances at making the front page. Please do this tastefully and don't overdo it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645
        moron4hire 10y ago
        Yeah, "Please do this tastefully and don't overdo it." Submitting your own article four times just because it didn't get the attention you wanted doesn't really fit into that. If I was stupid and submitted an article in the low traffic hours and it got no comments or upvotes, I sometimes consider reposting (though frequently I just pass). If I post during high time and it gets no attention, no way, it had its chance, it's a dud, time to go do something new.
ant6n 10y ago
Positive feedback can be very motivating. If it helps you keep going, it can be very useful.
- moron4hire 10y ago
  I understand that, but building a project is usually a long, dark, lonely path. If you really want to succeed, you have to learn to do it without attaboys. Take them if/when they come, but don't expect them. If you really believe what you're working on is important, you're going to have to learn how to slog.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
crdoconnor 10y ago
I'm not so sure negative criticism is always useful. First Dropbox attempt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software." "The only problem is that you have to install something." I don't think these things really inhibited Dropbox from taking off.
- moron4hire 10y ago
  No, those criticisms probably fundamentally shaped Dropbox's marketing message, if not also informing them of where to take their product. When people post negative criticism, it's because they find the topic important. They find it important enough to evaluate your product. You have to ask yourself whether or not their criticism has any grain of truth to it. And regardless of the answer, it's very important information. If the answer is, "they don't understand what I'm trying to do," then you've failed at marketing. Your message is garbled and it needs work. There's no such thing as "if you build it, they will come." That movie was about a literal miracle. You need marketing and you need to get good at it. If the answer is, "they don't understand how early the product is", then their criticism is probably based on a valid reason (expressed poorly) and you probably released too early or with too many features. Minimum Viable Product is about what is viable, not what meets your vision. Either your broken features are necessary and you released too early, or they are not and you need to cut them completely. Better to have no feature than a broken one that makes people bitch at you. That only leaves, "yes, I recognize that their criticism is based on a valid reason (expressed poorly)". You can pretty much count on people being poor communicators 90% of the time. So your choice becomes to let their failings as a communicator push you into discounting what they have to say--and thereby harming your product--or ignore the packaging and focus on the message--and make a better product for it.
  - bjt 10y ago
    Much criticism is also explained by "they feel threatened by this".
jakobegger 10y ago
Positive feedback is really important because it keeps you going. Without positive feedback you'll give up. Negative feedback is important because it tells you what you are doing wrong. It can be really hard to swallow, and my first response is usually to dismiss it for some reason. But if you try hard to understand why that person thinks that your product is crap, you'll almost always find a sensible reason, and a way to improve it.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

> "Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." Personally I believe that if you have something original and the idea gets "stolen", you should be proud of yourself. You've just done something good for the world[0]. What really matters for humanity is that something was done, not who did it, and especially not who did it first. [0] - assuming the idea itself isn't evil.

swalsh 10y ago
This sounds nice in theory, and perhaps if we lived in a different type of society that would even be true. We don't though, we live in the world where our rewards are tied to our accomplishments. those rewards are the incentives for us to do the work, it might not be 100% of the incentive, but it's a large part. Of course, if someone steals your idea, but wins the race, they're probably executing better. That's capitalism, that's the beauty of competition. First mover advantage is often a disadvantage. You have to pay for all the mistakes. If you're an established player, you can afford it. If you're brand new though, you might not be able to.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  True. I understand the emotional impact of ideas too - every time I see someone executing on something I spent time thinking about, I feel as if I've just lost hit points. That said, I try to promote a more global view on things, because as a society, we're in dire need of more of that. Self-centered view is easy to have.
- pjlegato 10y ago
  That's not just capitalism; that's all systems. If you had a great new idea in the Soviet Union, for example, do you suppose you would be just given the resources necessary to execute it well? Of course not, and moreover the incumbent solutions were a lot better positioned to crush your novel way of doing things in order to protect their own positions than the incumbents are under capitalism.
  - 10y ago

vorg 10y ago

> if no one looks at it, is dismissive of it, or even becomes inflammatory of you sharing your own creation, ... people stealing an idea Far more likely than people stealing an idea is attacks by the people with vested interests in something else threatened by the idea. If someone's inflammatory of you, perhaps they're "useful idiots" being prodded by other parties trying to kill off what you're doing by discouraging you.