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This here is what gets me salivating: Using the toolbar as a context-sensitive test runner/controler: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwC8SNvW8AQgeWN.png:large http

This here is what gets me salivating: Using the toolbar as a context-sensitive test runner/controler: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwC8SNvW8AQgeWN.png:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwC8SNvW8AQgeWN.png:large

intruder 10y ago
I don't understand the general moan about the touch bar. These are exactly the cases I think will make the touch bar great. Is it the most innovative concept ever? No, but it looks like it's been executed very well. I think developers will like this macbook.
- monkmartinez 10y ago
  With PyCharm and most Jetbrains IDEs I can remap keys to run test. So pressing two or three keys will run tests AND!!! I don't have to look at my keyboard to run the tests NOR see the results.
  - acdha 10y ago
    … and you can continue to do that just fine. Meanwhile, the other 90% of users will probably love it when their IDE, profiler, every browser's developer tools, etc. can display context-appropriate labels so they don't need to remember what F8 does in the current mode of the current application.
    - monkmartinez 10y ago
      90% of users consistently and/or constantly look at and/or check their keyboards with the new touchbar. That sounds so AWESOME! Thumbs up! /s The touch bar is a regression.
- duaneb 10y ago
  To what exact cases are you referring? Do you not use an ide with a test runner? What exactly is desirable about triggering and monitoring this from a second display on the keyboard--where you're looking all the time, naturally--over clicking a button on screen?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - striking 10y ago
    Take a good look at the IDE running there. It's Vim. I use that all the time, and so do many other people on HN. Do you need a button like this on your keyboard? No, you could set up a new Vim bind. But this is more dynamic; what if the test re-run buttons were only visible after having modified a file, and replaced with a deploy or commit button if tests succeed? If you're vigorously opposed to it, don't buy a Mac. But some people can definitely see use in it. It's like your function row, but with visibly context-aware functions.
    - duaneb 10y ago
      The computer already has a fantastic dynamic display built in—the display. Your eyes even naturally fall there. Why do we need a second display at all, much less on the keyboard where people do not look?
      - tkxxx7 10y ago
        Unless you're touch-typing your function keys, you certainly do look there. I don't want a "second display"; I want dynamic, context-aware buttons. Focusing on the fact that it's "another display" misses all the benefits of it not being static hardware buttons.
        tomtheelder 10y ago
        > I want dynamic, context-aware buttons. The buttons on your keyboard are already context aware. All this does is make them difficult/impossible to touch type (I touch type my F-keys), forces me to look away from my display to perform operations, and removes the good tactile feedback you get from a keypress.
        tkxxx7 10y ago
        "Context-aware" as in the applications you use will decide what to do with the inputs, I guess, sure. The applications you use being able to create their own inputs is an entirely different thing and what I meant by "context-aware". I agree, though, that the lack of feedback was a mistake.
emidln 10y ago
My emacs already does that if I want it to. My vim did it before I switched to spacemacs. I still don't understand why you'd want to give up physical buttons for an awkwardly angled small touchscreen that requires using your laptop's keyboard. I'm probably not the target market I suppose, my keyboard's keycaps are blank: http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/ http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/
jlarocco 10y ago
Yeah, but you're ignoring the functionality loss from not having the function keys. You may not use them, but many people do. For example, in Emacs (and I'm assuming most IDEs) I can map a function key to run my tests and have a status bar entry saying how many passed or failed. It's the exact functionality in your screenshot, no touch bar required. At best the touch bar is a nice gimmick, and it's not adding anything you can't already do, and the trade off is the function keys. They could have just as easily left the function keys alone and added the touch bar above.
- stephenr 10y ago
  Remind me again how function keys can produce full colour multitouch interfaces, such as video/image scrubbers, colour pickers, etc. The standard "function keys can do anything" response is getting old.
  - jlarocco 10y ago
    Who cares? It's a gimmick. Video scrubbers and color pickers already exist. I don't need a silly keyboard screen to do them. The "I need to pick colors and scrub video" response is getting old. Nobody does that stuff often enough for it to be a good trade off.
    - stephenr 10y ago
      But they didn't add a dedicated hardware video scrubber. They added a dedicated hardware input device that can present basically any type of input. Those are just examples of what's possible that wasn't possible before.
  - robinson7d 10y ago
    > The standard "function keys can do anything" response is getting old. That "function keys can do anything" is, in my opinion, the exact reason they had to go. They're scary for the typical user. What is F7? You may know, but it's not obvious in any way. That some of them cause destructive actions (e.g. Alt+F4 on Windows) makes it worse - they're scary to many users. And even when after figuring out what some of them do, one is stuck wondering "was that F8? Or F9? Oh! It was F10" (which, includes the worry that a wrong guess could cause problems). Though, I cannot believe they shipped it without the haptic feedback to make it clear that a button was actually clicked. ^ Also, none of that, to me, includes Esc. Esc seems clear enough in its intent, and I hold no ill-will toward the Esc key.

intruder 10y ago

I don't understand the general moan about the touch bar. These are exactly the cases I think will make the touch bar great. Is it the most innovative concept ever? No, but it looks like it's been executed very well. I think developers will like this macbook.

monkmartinez 10y ago
With PyCharm and most Jetbrains IDEs I can remap keys to run test. So pressing two or three keys will run tests AND!!! I don't have to look at my keyboard to run the tests NOR see the results.
- acdha 10y ago
  … and you can continue to do that just fine. Meanwhile, the other 90% of users will probably love it when their IDE, profiler, every browser's developer tools, etc. can display context-appropriate labels so they don't need to remember what F8 does in the current mode of the current application.
  - monkmartinez 10y ago
    90% of users consistently and/or constantly look at and/or check their keyboards with the new touchbar. That sounds so AWESOME! Thumbs up! /s The touch bar is a regression.
duaneb 10y ago
To what exact cases are you referring? Do you not use an ide with a test runner? What exactly is desirable about triggering and monitoring this from a second display on the keyboard--where you're looking all the time, naturally--over clicking a button on screen?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- striking 10y ago
  Take a good look at the IDE running there. It's Vim. I use that all the time, and so do many other people on HN. Do you need a button like this on your keyboard? No, you could set up a new Vim bind. But this is more dynamic; what if the test re-run buttons were only visible after having modified a file, and replaced with a deploy or commit button if tests succeed? If you're vigorously opposed to it, don't buy a Mac. But some people can definitely see use in it. It's like your function row, but with visibly context-aware functions.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    The computer already has a fantastic dynamic display built in—the display. Your eyes even naturally fall there. Why do we need a second display at all, much less on the keyboard where people do not look?
    - tkxxx7 10y ago
      Unless you're touch-typing your function keys, you certainly do look there. I don't want a "second display"; I want dynamic, context-aware buttons. Focusing on the fact that it's "another display" misses all the benefits of it not being static hardware buttons.
      - tomtheelder 10y ago
        > I want dynamic, context-aware buttons. The buttons on your keyboard are already context aware. All this does is make them difficult/impossible to touch type (I touch type my F-keys), forces me to look away from my display to perform operations, and removes the good tactile feedback you get from a keypress.
        tkxxx7 10y ago
        "Context-aware" as in the applications you use will decide what to do with the inputs, I guess, sure. The applications you use being able to create their own inputs is an entirely different thing and what I meant by "context-aware". I agree, though, that the lack of feedback was a mistake.

emidln 10y ago

My emacs already does that if I want it to. My vim did it before I switched to spacemacs. I still don't understand why you'd want to give up physical buttons for an awkwardly angled small touchscreen that requires using your laptop's keyboard. I'm probably not the target market I suppose, my keyboard's keycaps are blank: http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/ http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/

jlarocco 10y ago

Yeah, but you're ignoring the functionality loss from not having the function keys. You may not use them, but many people do. For example, in Emacs (and I'm assuming most IDEs) I can map a function key to run my tests and have a status bar entry saying how many passed or failed. It's the exact functionality in your screenshot, no touch bar required. At best the touch bar is a nice gimmick, and it's not adding anything you can't already do, and the trade off is the function keys. They could have just as easily left the function keys alone and added the touch bar above.

stephenr 10y ago
Remind me again how function keys can produce full colour multitouch interfaces, such as video/image scrubbers, colour pickers, etc. The standard "function keys can do anything" response is getting old.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  Who cares? It's a gimmick. Video scrubbers and color pickers already exist. I don't need a silly keyboard screen to do them. The "I need to pick colors and scrub video" response is getting old. Nobody does that stuff often enough for it to be a good trade off.
  - stephenr 10y ago
    But they didn't add a dedicated hardware video scrubber. They added a dedicated hardware input device that can present basically any type of input. Those are just examples of what's possible that wasn't possible before.
- robinson7d 10y ago
  > The standard "function keys can do anything" response is getting old. That "function keys can do anything" is, in my opinion, the exact reason they had to go. They're scary for the typical user. What is F7? You may know, but it's not obvious in any way. That some of them cause destructive actions (e.g. Alt+F4 on Windows) makes it worse - they're scary to many users. And even when after figuring out what some of them do, one is stuck wondering "was that F8? Or F9? Oh! It was F10" (which, includes the worry that a wrong guess could cause problems). Though, I cannot believe they shipped it without the haptic feedback to make it clear that a button was actually clicked. ^ Also, none of that, to me, includes Esc. Esc seems clear enough in its intent, and I hold no ill-will toward the Esc key.