10 ms·

Microsoft is innovative because you can now purchase a dedicated hardware peripheral for some software feature the touchscreen was designed to replace. Let's c

by whytaka 10y ago

Microsoft is innovative because you can now purchase a dedicated hardware peripheral for some software feature the touchscreen was designed to replace. Let's completely forget that Microsoft 'upgrades' your OS without your permission, spies on you, embeds ads into the Start Menu, and their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. In my opinion, these are actual reasons a company should completely fail and dissolve. I'll stick with Apple who, though not without faults, works hard to: - build quality machines that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors that it shifts the arithmetic when comparing the YoY cost of their wares to their competition - secure the integrity of my machine and my privacy - deliver industry-leading user experience Apple isn't perfect. The 1st-gen Magic Mouse (I haven't tried the 2nd gen) is utter garbage. Some iOS 10 UX are inconsistent and flawed. They probably should have included a USB-C - Lightning cable in with their new iPhones. But let's all calm down. Apple is still a cut above. USB-C connected peripherals will likely storm into the marketplace. You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life.

Paulods 10y ago
Do you honestly believe that the current macbook (note the 12" not the new pro) will not wanes in performance in the next 4 years as we have historically seen with the macbook air? I ask because while my macbook air coming up to 3 years and feels almost like a brand new machine - the current 12" is actually slower than my air. Can i really expect that to have 4 years of solid performance updates on the macbook? In that case should i expect my air to last me the next 4 years and do just well for a solid 8 years of great performance?
- bengale 10y ago
  This seems a weird question. The Macbook being slower than your air doesn't mean that it won't be just as performant in 4 years, but no it won't be faster than a device that it isn't faster than now. If the Macbook is fast enough for someone now, and their workload doesn't change, then yes, I'd expect it to be just fine for them in 4 years; just as the same can be said for the Air, or the others.
  - Paulods 10y ago
    Thats kind of my point. Its been almost 4 years and apple hasn't made the devices (at the same price bracket) any more performant. Will the software they make over the next 4 years stay at the same level of requirements and run just as smoothly as everything seems to run on my air after 3 years? I am not sure that is the case looking at how the OS is moving and how they are treating performance.
- f_allwein 10y ago
  No, the non-pro has very basic performance, because it is meant to be an entry level computer. Get one for your mum today, and she'll happily use it for 5+ years. Get a macbook pro for yourself, and the same thing should be the case.
- lagadu 10y ago
  As a fellow Air owner I feel exactly the same way. I like new toys but looking around between the macbooks and macbooks pro there's nothing I'd want to replace it with. To apple's credit the Air performs incredibly well and the only reason I looked into replacing it was because its 128gb SSD is a becoming a problem, so I'm using that as an excuse to upgrade into something newer and shiny but the only things I see that I'd want to replace it with are the surface book and the surface pro 4. I want to like the 12-inch macbook because of the form factor but I just don't want what in some ways is a noticeable downgrade. If MS had that $650 discount on returning a macbook when buying their hardware in Europe, I'd have already jumped on it.
  - tkp 10y ago
    Not to invalidate your excuse, but if you need, you can probably upgrade your MBA's SSD. Installed an OWC Aura SSD in mine, it's is very straightforward.
    - Volt 10y ago
      I've personally had those OWC drives die on me four times now.
bengale 10y ago
Finally some sanity! The temper tantrum because it's not ticked everyones boxes was less surprising on Reddit, but I expected a little less drama here.
systemtest 10y ago
I bought the first 13" Macbook Pro with the Thunderbolt port, expecting the whole world to switch to Thunderbolt in a couple of years. It was predicted that there would be Macbooks in the future with only Thunderbolt ports, as it could connect to everything. Guess what, that didn't happen. It became a high-end niche market. Not saying that that's where USB-C will be going but I have a bad feeling about this.
- alvarosevilla95 10y ago
  There's a big difference between thunderbolt and thunderbolt 3/usb c. The former was proprietary by Apple/Intel, and very expensive, so no one else added it to their machines, and onlu very high end accessories included it. Usb C is the new standard that is already being adopted by most manufacturers, so I'm very confident it will spread quite fast. Not saying that launching a professional laptop in 2016 with just 4 usb c ports was a good idea though, but I guess they're really pushing for the standard to be adopted as quick as possible.
  - chx 10y ago
    Thunderbolt 3 is still insanely expensive. The Akitio Thunder2 PCIe Box is $229.00, the Thunder3 Pcie Expansion Box is $299 and if you wanted to do a go-around by buying a converter, that's also $70 -- the StarTech.com Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter is $73.99. By economies of scale TB3 ought to be cheaper but it is not. Other docks are even more expensive, the Powercolor Devil Box is $375 and the Razer Core is $399 but only if you buy a Razer laptop otherwise $499. To compare, an M.2 to PCIe DIY solution from a noname company without warranty is roughly $100 so the $229 price is pretty OK. The TB3 box, however, needs to drop to half price and then we are talking. And Thunderbolt of yore was not Apple only by far, HP, Dell, Lenovo all had mobile workstations sporting it. Heck, the Thinkpad T430s had it. Of course, it's all different now, practically all $1000 and over laptops have TB3.
- mmastrac 10y ago
  USB-C has a better chance, being effectively USB under the hood with a better connector. There were zero thunderbolt phones. I'm typing this comment on a Pixel with a C port. 90%+ released phones will have USB-C in late 2017 I wager. The alternative mode stuff may take a year or two to sort out though
insightful 10y ago
HN has gone to shit, and one of the reasons is that huge numbers of .NET developers somehow funneled in and started directing the content, so absolutely terrible submissions like this one float to the top. As does every future-claim of Microsoft's, every bit of oversold shovelware, etc. It's rather incredible. And yes, I realize this will be dead, and I am completely okay with that. I achieve my purpose posting in hidden silence.
sz4kerto 10y ago
> that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors Dunno, I bought a top-of-the-line rMBP in late 2013, and the anti-glare coating has come off from the screen -- Apple didn't honor the warranty (this is Europe). I sold it because it was crap to use, then some months later Apple confirmed that it is a widespread problem and they will replace the screens for free. (Except in e.g. Hungary where the official dealers didn't give a crap, because the 1 year warranty was over.) Also it had problems with overheating and wifi. On the other hand, I had a bulky, unsexy HP Zbook G2 that had a GPU problem after 2 years. HP guy came to my house with a new GPU, disassembled the laptop on my desk, put the new GPU in, run some diags and left. In 24 hrs. I sold this one and it is in service at one of my friends, rendering in 3DSMAX 12 hours a day. Anecdata, I know.
- strictnein 10y ago
  ZBooks are good machines. We run HP Zbook 17s (have a G2, but about to get a G3). Battery life is horrible on the 17" model, but running lots of VMs and other demanding tasks is a breeze. 64GB DDR4 ECC, Quad core Xeon E3-1575M processor, NVIDIA Quadro M5000 (really overkill for my work, but fun to have), etc. It's a real professional machine. Just can't be touched by anything Apple makes.
lmm 10y ago
> spies on you Any reason to believe MS does this more than Apple does? > their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. MS making their own hardware looks to be at least partially a response to that. > - build quality machines that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors that it shifts the arithmetic when comparing the YoY cost of their wares to their competition Again, this really isn't the advantage it used to be. MS first-party surface hardware is really high quality. > But let's all calm down. Apple is still a cut above. USB-C connected peripherals will likely storm into the marketplace. You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life. Apple has long offered an excellent direct user experience but extremely poor interoperability. You're still not allowed to run their OS in a VM or on third-party hardware, nor develop programs for Apple systems on non-Apple systems - and if you want a different configuration than the very limited choice Apple gives you, tough. There's plenty wrong with MS but I feel like they're at least somewhat open to alternatives if I don't like their way of doing it. Apple is very much "our way or the highway", which is not where I want my software to be.
- nicky0 10y ago
  It wasn't always the case, but you are now allowed to run macOS in a VM on Apple hardware.
  - s_ngularity 10y ago
    Source on this? A quick google search didn't turn up anything
    - SSLy 10y ago
      https://www.vmware.com/content/dam/digitalmarketing/vmware/en/images/products/fusion/vmware-mac-os-sierra-ready.jpg https://www.vmware.com/content/dam/digitalmarketing/vmware/e...
fuj 10y ago
On your way, your shepherd Tim is calling you
aRationalMoose 10y ago
Preach!
besselheim 10y ago
Anonymised telemetry reports are not the same as being spied upon. Anyway, Apple has the same kind of thing in iOS and OS X.
- curt15 10y ago
  Is there any official documentation of what exactly is reported? For instance, what does Windows send to domains like ad.doubleclick.net? It's rather curious that Microsoft builds such extraordinary defenses against the user interfering with telemetry like hardcoding certain DNS lookups and tricking the user into thinking that the hosts file actually works (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30676597-Complete-Win10-blocking-host-file http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30676597-Complete-Win10-blo...).
  - besselheim 10y ago
    There's this Technet article, which also tells you how to dial it down or disable it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/itpro/windows/manage/con... I don't see the problem with ignoring the hosts file, if that is indeed what is happening. It's not really intended as a blocking mechanism.
UK-AL 10y ago
"Let's completely forget that Microsoft 'upgrades' your OS without your permission, spies on you, embeds ads into the Start Menu, and their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. In my opinion, these are actual reasons a company should completely fail and dissolve." - an google and apple don't do this?
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  The general argument is that Apple, because their profit margin is in the hardware, has no motive to collect and sell personal information to advertisers. And in line with that, Apple has focused on the security and privacy features of their stack. Google is, for better or worse, still an advertising company. Selling you a phone isn't how they make money; getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money. Microsoft is caught in a weird place. Historically they've been dependent on OEMs to buy Windows from them and preinstall it, and OEMs have had such low margins that they have to pre-load the hardware with a bunch of spyware/adware in order to turn a profit. Microsoft could kick this by taking greater ownership of the hardware side and adopting a more Apple-style approach, and the Surface line seems to be an attempt to do this, but they aren't there yet.
  - eth0up 10y ago
    >.... getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money. This is a common and generally accepted interpretation of Google that I conjecture contrary to. To restrict such an unprecedented glut of data solely to marketing would seem prohibitively wasteful. Access to intellectual property[1], psychology/social trends, biometrics[2], political, economic, and myriad otherwise private/personal details, etc., collectively and individually comprise a colossal repository useful for predicting, manipulating and understanding (in entirely novel ways) all these very subjects. From intel (e.g. gov) to legislation (e.g. ALEC), the implied applications are many. Perhaps ads are the primary ostensive means of income for Google presently, but opportunity elsewhere abounds. And maybe I've got it all wrong and marketing is the root directory of humanity. 1. Considerations: Exchange of unencrypted prospective patent data pre-patent; google edu domains; unclaimed conceptual material, etc. 2. Voice, face.
baldfat 10y ago
This is about Innovation and this is something Apple really never was good at even though people threw the phrase at Apple all the time. "Instead, the company is tremendously iterative which is a fancy way of saying that they’re good at making steady, small improvements over time." http://time.com/3712678/apple-innovation/ http://time.com/3712678/apple-innovation/ from 3/2015
rayiner 10y ago
Not to mention this article is based on a product targeted at a niche minority of users. Nothing with a 28" screen is the future of how non-artists use a computer. Microsoft is selling one just mainstream computer (the Surface Book), and despite being a fifth gen Surface device it launched with major firmware bugs that took months to resolve. Apple, unsurprisingly, is selling Macs about five times faster than Microsoft is selling Surface devices. It's selling iPads about 10-15 times faster. Not to mention Microsoft seems to have completely exited the phone market. Maybe Microsoft needs less innovation and more bread and butter products for ordinary users.
- intended 10y ago
  Those macs, trace their history back to devices also targetted at this same niche of users, and after iteration lead to the macbooks you use today.
intended 10y ago
This argument attempts to compare the two firms on the givens, and not the difference. The fact is that these were criticisms before last week, and nothing about those has changed - the issue is that one firm released a product which was significantly better than the offerings made by the other firm. Providing this kind of argument is moving the goal posts
TACIXAT 10y ago
I had a MBP a few years ago. I installed the Boot Camp beta. When it went out of beta it locked up with no ability to change the configuration or installed OSs. The solution was to upgrade (30$) to the latest version of OS X. Which meant I lost all the software that came with the laptop since I didn't want to pay for it again. I had an iPod touch. When I was using it on a certain network it couldn't hit the NTP servers. This set the time to 1970, and I couldn't change it manually due to some integer overflow bug. Trying to scroll those wheel things to the current date, it would start skipping 30 years forward and backward. The time not being set meant I couldn't use the app store, upgrade the OS, etc., rendering the device useless. I'll stick to Linux and Android. At least I can fix those when they break.
- jagermo 10y ago
  I own a perfectly fine iPad 1 and can't use apps for it anymore because Apple said so. This really irks me, at least let me install the latest usable version. The iPad is still working nicely, but the behavior by Apple just sucks.
  - bigmanwalter 10y ago
    If you first add the app to iTunes for PC/Mac, then it lets you install the last compatible version of the app on your iDevice!
    - jagermo 10y ago
      wow, thanks. I'll try this.
      - bigmanwalter 10y ago
        It's absurd they don't say that anywhere, but it works :)
  - nodamage 10y ago
    You can: https://support.apple.com/en-is/HT201377 https://support.apple.com/en-is/HT201377
staticelf 10y ago
Buy windows 10 pro and shut down auto-updates? I've opted out of basically everything except auto-update because I want to latest release. The possibility of shutting down auto update is probably the biggest sellpoint of Pro and Enterprise editions nowadays, together with encryption. Windows 10 don't really spy on me more than Apple or Google, but for those who complain there is always Linux that is the only real true alternative to opting out of being spied upon. I run Windows 10 Pro and love it auto-updates is wonderful as a programmer also because I know people will get the latest version automatically.
MaulingMonkey 10y ago
> You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life. I did try my hand at an apple machine for awhile. Bought one of their "high quality" laptops. Used it until multiple keys broke - the < key angled sideways when part of the hinge broke, and the capslock key literally snapped in half. There are less extreme measures to discourage me from macro and template metaprogramming...! I've never had a laptop break that fast before or since. They wanted me to leave the entire laptop with them for weeks to replace the keyboard, IIRC, so I passed and just used the exposed membrane for awhile. Since then, I've turned down a free MBP at work. I'd exhaust the max memory linking. I want a sane, tactile keyboard. They didn't splurge enough on the SSD to fit my projects on. The display isn't even 4K. I'll be forced to dual boot if I try to use it as a laptop. It's overpriced - and while an overpriced iPhone dongle for iOS development may be necessary, I'd much rather have a Mac mini and have the difference spent on more 4K monitors, more RAM, more SSD space, and more cores for my PC build. I've finally gotten around to retiring my 2009 PC build this year. Admittedly, I replaced the motherboard once when it failed, and upgraded the RAM, but that's still doing better than a dead-out-of-the-gate MBP I'm afraid. Which is a shame - I'd like more competition for my money.
RandomOpinion 10y ago
> spies on you Enough with this rubbish claim, please. Everyone I've asked to actually substantiate it resorts to angry handwaving. How about you? The telemetry collects crash and feature usage data, the same as macOS and all of the phone OSes does. You want that on because it tells MS where the bugs are. If you turn it off, you don't get to complain about bugs because MS has no idea you encountered any.
- eth0up 10y ago
  I have no auto-telemetry activated in my OS. I've also deactivated it in my browser, Firefox, through the about:config settings. However, I am free to file a bug-report anytime I wish, as is anyone else. Referring to concerns about the contents of this telemetry as "rubbish" is every bit as potentially unreasonable as claiming to know precisely what it contains; unless you do – in which case you might provide some strong citations verifying the telemetry contents exclusively as "crash and feature usage data", and to be extra helpful, clear definitions of "feature usage" in that particular context.
- eridius 10y ago
  AIUI, Microsoft collects a ton of data. Apple doesn't. Apple collects crashes and some fairly basic (very anonymized) usage data, but it also asks you up-front during installation/setup whether you want to enable this kind of reporting. But from what I keep seeing people say on the internet, it sounds like Windows is constantly reporting data home to Microsoft rather than just sending crashes/bugs and other basic info.
smrtinsert 10y ago
Once a company is on the defensive like this, you know its actually dead in the water. The point still stands, the innovation is with M$ for now. Maybe Apple will come back with something years from now - maybe not.
gchokov 10y ago
Thank you for the comment. It's rare to find reasonable responses in AAPL vs MSFT discussions lately.
SecConsult 10y ago
Dumbest apple fanboi I've seen today and it's 9AM. Apple just oversells security and "cool" design. But in reality its just expensive garbage, no real hardware power, no real security
- sctb 10y ago
  Please don't insult other community members like this here.
duaneb 10y ago
Your argument seems to come down to the idea that apple products are good investments. However, this isn't much use if they keep ignoring how their users use their computers. All I wanted was the same product line with 32 gigs of memory. Looks like I'll never get that computer. What's the point in investing heavily in a different computing future than you want? Microsoft may not be any better on the software end of things, but at least they're doing interesting things with hardware, WITHOUT killing what works.
- tomwilson 10y ago
  You'll get that computer in 2018 when the quad core intel chip that supports lpddr4 or whatever is out.
bch 10y ago
> OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. Are you talking about this[0] (which seems inconclusive), or something else? All other spying incidents I see from Lenovo are software-based. [0] http://www.geek.com/chips/spy-agencies-shun-lenovo-finding-backdoors-built-into-the-hardware-1563801/ http://www.geek.com/chips/spy-agencies-shun-lenovo-finding-b...

by whytaka 10y ago

Paulods 10y ago

Do you honestly believe that the current macbook (note the 12" not the new pro) will not wanes in performance in the next 4 years as we have historically seen with the macbook air? I ask because while my macbook air coming up to 3 years and feels almost like a brand new machine - the current 12" is actually slower than my air. Can i really expect that to have 4 years of solid performance updates on the macbook? In that case should i expect my air to last me the next 4 years and do just well for a solid 8 years of great performance?

bengale 10y ago
This seems a weird question. The Macbook being slower than your air doesn't mean that it won't be just as performant in 4 years, but no it won't be faster than a device that it isn't faster than now. If the Macbook is fast enough for someone now, and their workload doesn't change, then yes, I'd expect it to be just fine for them in 4 years; just as the same can be said for the Air, or the others.
- Paulods 10y ago
  Thats kind of my point. Its been almost 4 years and apple hasn't made the devices (at the same price bracket) any more performant. Will the software they make over the next 4 years stay at the same level of requirements and run just as smoothly as everything seems to run on my air after 3 years? I am not sure that is the case looking at how the OS is moving and how they are treating performance.
f_allwein 10y ago
No, the non-pro has very basic performance, because it is meant to be an entry level computer. Get one for your mum today, and she'll happily use it for 5+ years. Get a macbook pro for yourself, and the same thing should be the case.
lagadu 10y ago
As a fellow Air owner I feel exactly the same way. I like new toys but looking around between the macbooks and macbooks pro there's nothing I'd want to replace it with. To apple's credit the Air performs incredibly well and the only reason I looked into replacing it was because its 128gb SSD is a becoming a problem, so I'm using that as an excuse to upgrade into something newer and shiny but the only things I see that I'd want to replace it with are the surface book and the surface pro 4. I want to like the 12-inch macbook because of the form factor but I just don't want what in some ways is a noticeable downgrade. If MS had that $650 discount on returning a macbook when buying their hardware in Europe, I'd have already jumped on it.
- tkp 10y ago
  Not to invalidate your excuse, but if you need, you can probably upgrade your MBA's SSD. Installed an OWC Aura SSD in mine, it's is very straightforward.
  - Volt 10y ago
    I've personally had those OWC drives die on me four times now.

bengale 10y ago

Finally some sanity! The temper tantrum because it's not ticked everyones boxes was less surprising on Reddit, but I expected a little less drama here.

systemtest 10y ago

I bought the first 13" Macbook Pro with the Thunderbolt port, expecting the whole world to switch to Thunderbolt in a couple of years. It was predicted that there would be Macbooks in the future with only Thunderbolt ports, as it could connect to everything. Guess what, that didn't happen. It became a high-end niche market. Not saying that that's where USB-C will be going but I have a bad feeling about this.

alvarosevilla95 10y ago
There's a big difference between thunderbolt and thunderbolt 3/usb c. The former was proprietary by Apple/Intel, and very expensive, so no one else added it to their machines, and onlu very high end accessories included it. Usb C is the new standard that is already being adopted by most manufacturers, so I'm very confident it will spread quite fast. Not saying that launching a professional laptop in 2016 with just 4 usb c ports was a good idea though, but I guess they're really pushing for the standard to be adopted as quick as possible.
- chx 10y ago
  Thunderbolt 3 is still insanely expensive. The Akitio Thunder2 PCIe Box is $229.00, the Thunder3 Pcie Expansion Box is $299 and if you wanted to do a go-around by buying a converter, that's also $70 -- the StarTech.com Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter is $73.99. By economies of scale TB3 ought to be cheaper but it is not. Other docks are even more expensive, the Powercolor Devil Box is $375 and the Razer Core is $399 but only if you buy a Razer laptop otherwise $499. To compare, an M.2 to PCIe DIY solution from a noname company without warranty is roughly $100 so the $229 price is pretty OK. The TB3 box, however, needs to drop to half price and then we are talking. And Thunderbolt of yore was not Apple only by far, HP, Dell, Lenovo all had mobile workstations sporting it. Heck, the Thinkpad T430s had it. Of course, it's all different now, practically all $1000 and over laptops have TB3.
mmastrac 10y ago
USB-C has a better chance, being effectively USB under the hood with a better connector. There were zero thunderbolt phones. I'm typing this comment on a Pixel with a C port. 90%+ released phones will have USB-C in late 2017 I wager. The alternative mode stuff may take a year or two to sort out though

insightful 10y ago

HN has gone to shit, and one of the reasons is that huge numbers of .NET developers somehow funneled in and started directing the content, so absolutely terrible submissions like this one float to the top. As does every future-claim of Microsoft's, every bit of oversold shovelware, etc. It's rather incredible. And yes, I realize this will be dead, and I am completely okay with that. I achieve my purpose posting in hidden silence.

sz4kerto 10y ago

> that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors Dunno, I bought a top-of-the-line rMBP in late 2013, and the anti-glare coating has come off from the screen -- Apple didn't honor the warranty (this is Europe). I sold it because it was crap to use, then some months later Apple confirmed that it is a widespread problem and they will replace the screens for free. (Except in e.g. Hungary where the official dealers didn't give a crap, because the 1 year warranty was over.) Also it had problems with overheating and wifi. On the other hand, I had a bulky, unsexy HP Zbook G2 that had a GPU problem after 2 years. HP guy came to my house with a new GPU, disassembled the laptop on my desk, put the new GPU in, run some diags and left. In 24 hrs. I sold this one and it is in service at one of my friends, rendering in 3DSMAX 12 hours a day. Anecdata, I know.

strictnein 10y ago
ZBooks are good machines. We run HP Zbook 17s (have a G2, but about to get a G3). Battery life is horrible on the 17" model, but running lots of VMs and other demanding tasks is a breeze. 64GB DDR4 ECC, Quad core Xeon E3-1575M processor, NVIDIA Quadro M5000 (really overkill for my work, but fun to have), etc. It's a real professional machine. Just can't be touched by anything Apple makes.

lmm 10y ago

> spies on you Any reason to believe MS does this more than Apple does? > their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. MS making their own hardware looks to be at least partially a response to that. > - build quality machines that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors that it shifts the arithmetic when comparing the YoY cost of their wares to their competition Again, this really isn't the advantage it used to be. MS first-party surface hardware is really high quality. > But let's all calm down. Apple is still a cut above. USB-C connected peripherals will likely storm into the marketplace. You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life. Apple has long offered an excellent direct user experience but extremely poor interoperability. You're still not allowed to run their OS in a VM or on third-party hardware, nor develop programs for Apple systems on non-Apple systems - and if you want a different configuration than the very limited choice Apple gives you, tough. There's plenty wrong with MS but I feel like they're at least somewhat open to alternatives if I don't like their way of doing it. Apple is very much "our way or the highway", which is not where I want my software to be.

nicky0 10y ago
It wasn't always the case, but you are now allowed to run macOS in a VM on Apple hardware.
- s_ngularity 10y ago
  Source on this? A quick google search didn't turn up anything
  - SSLy 10y ago
    https://www.vmware.com/content/dam/digitalmarketing/vmware/en/images/products/fusion/vmware-mac-os-sierra-ready.jpg https://www.vmware.com/content/dam/digitalmarketing/vmware/e...

fuj 10y ago

On your way, your shepherd Tim is calling you

aRationalMoose 10y ago

Preach!

besselheim 10y ago

Anonymised telemetry reports are not the same as being spied upon. Anyway, Apple has the same kind of thing in iOS and OS X.

curt15 10y ago
Is there any official documentation of what exactly is reported? For instance, what does Windows send to domains like ad.doubleclick.net? It's rather curious that Microsoft builds such extraordinary defenses against the user interfering with telemetry like hardcoding certain DNS lookups and tricking the user into thinking that the hosts file actually works (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30676597-Complete-Win10-blocking-host-file http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30676597-Complete-Win10-blo...).
- besselheim 10y ago
  There's this Technet article, which also tells you how to dial it down or disable it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/itpro/windows/manage/con... I don't see the problem with ignoring the hosts file, if that is indeed what is happening. It's not really intended as a blocking mechanism.

UK-AL 10y ago

"Let's completely forget that Microsoft 'upgrades' your OS without your permission, spies on you, embeds ads into the Start Menu, and their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. In my opinion, these are actual reasons a company should completely fail and dissolve." - an google and apple don't do this?

ubernostrum 10y ago
The general argument is that Apple, because their profit margin is in the hardware, has no motive to collect and sell personal information to advertisers. And in line with that, Apple has focused on the security and privacy features of their stack. Google is, for better or worse, still an advertising company. Selling you a phone isn't how they make money; getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money. Microsoft is caught in a weird place. Historically they've been dependent on OEMs to buy Windows from them and preinstall it, and OEMs have had such low margins that they have to pre-load the hardware with a bunch of spyware/adware in order to turn a profit. Microsoft could kick this by taking greater ownership of the hardware side and adopting a more Apple-style approach, and the Surface line seems to be an attempt to do this, but they aren't there yet.
- eth0up 10y ago
  >.... getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money. This is a common and generally accepted interpretation of Google that I conjecture contrary to. To restrict such an unprecedented glut of data solely to marketing would seem prohibitively wasteful. Access to intellectual property[1], psychology/social trends, biometrics[2], political, economic, and myriad otherwise private/personal details, etc., collectively and individually comprise a colossal repository useful for predicting, manipulating and understanding (in entirely novel ways) all these very subjects. From intel (e.g. gov) to legislation (e.g. ALEC), the implied applications are many. Perhaps ads are the primary ostensive means of income for Google presently, but opportunity elsewhere abounds. And maybe I've got it all wrong and marketing is the root directory of humanity. 1. Considerations: Exchange of unencrypted prospective patent data pre-patent; google edu domains; unclaimed conceptual material, etc. 2. Voice, face.

baldfat 10y ago

This is about Innovation and this is something Apple really never was good at even though people threw the phrase at Apple all the time. "Instead, the company is tremendously iterative which is a fancy way of saying that they’re good at making steady, small improvements over time." http://time.com/3712678/apple-innovation/ http://time.com/3712678/apple-innovation/ from 3/2015

rayiner 10y ago

Not to mention this article is based on a product targeted at a niche minority of users. Nothing with a 28" screen is the future of how non-artists use a computer. Microsoft is selling one just mainstream computer (the Surface Book), and despite being a fifth gen Surface device it launched with major firmware bugs that took months to resolve. Apple, unsurprisingly, is selling Macs about five times faster than Microsoft is selling Surface devices. It's selling iPads about 10-15 times faster. Not to mention Microsoft seems to have completely exited the phone market. Maybe Microsoft needs less innovation and more bread and butter products for ordinary users.

intended 10y ago
Those macs, trace their history back to devices also targetted at this same niche of users, and after iteration lead to the macbooks you use today.

intended 10y ago

This argument attempts to compare the two firms on the givens, and not the difference. The fact is that these were criticisms before last week, and nothing about those has changed - the issue is that one firm released a product which was significantly better than the offerings made by the other firm. Providing this kind of argument is moving the goal posts

TACIXAT 10y ago

I had a MBP a few years ago. I installed the Boot Camp beta. When it went out of beta it locked up with no ability to change the configuration or installed OSs. The solution was to upgrade (30$) to the latest version of OS X. Which meant I lost all the software that came with the laptop since I didn't want to pay for it again. I had an iPod touch. When I was using it on a certain network it couldn't hit the NTP servers. This set the time to 1970, and I couldn't change it manually due to some integer overflow bug. Trying to scroll those wheel things to the current date, it would start skipping 30 years forward and backward. The time not being set meant I couldn't use the app store, upgrade the OS, etc., rendering the device useless. I'll stick to Linux and Android. At least I can fix those when they break.

jagermo 10y ago
I own a perfectly fine iPad 1 and can't use apps for it anymore because Apple said so. This really irks me, at least let me install the latest usable version. The iPad is still working nicely, but the behavior by Apple just sucks.
- bigmanwalter 10y ago
  If you first add the app to iTunes for PC/Mac, then it lets you install the last compatible version of the app on your iDevice!
  - jagermo 10y ago
    wow, thanks. I'll try this.
    - bigmanwalter 10y ago
      It's absurd they don't say that anywhere, but it works :)
- nodamage 10y ago
  You can: https://support.apple.com/en-is/HT201377 https://support.apple.com/en-is/HT201377

staticelf 10y ago

Buy windows 10 pro and shut down auto-updates? I've opted out of basically everything except auto-update because I want to latest release. The possibility of shutting down auto update is probably the biggest sellpoint of Pro and Enterprise editions nowadays, together with encryption. Windows 10 don't really spy on me more than Apple or Google, but for those who complain there is always Linux that is the only real true alternative to opting out of being spied upon. I run Windows 10 Pro and love it auto-updates is wonderful as a programmer also because I know people will get the latest version automatically.

MaulingMonkey 10y ago

> You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life. I did try my hand at an apple machine for awhile. Bought one of their "high quality" laptops. Used it until multiple keys broke - the < key angled sideways when part of the hinge broke, and the capslock key literally snapped in half. There are less extreme measures to discourage me from macro and template metaprogramming...! I've never had a laptop break that fast before or since. They wanted me to leave the entire laptop with them for weeks to replace the keyboard, IIRC, so I passed and just used the exposed membrane for awhile. Since then, I've turned down a free MBP at work. I'd exhaust the max memory linking. I want a sane, tactile keyboard. They didn't splurge enough on the SSD to fit my projects on. The display isn't even 4K. I'll be forced to dual boot if I try to use it as a laptop. It's overpriced - and while an overpriced iPhone dongle for iOS development may be necessary, I'd much rather have a Mac mini and have the difference spent on more 4K monitors, more RAM, more SSD space, and more cores for my PC build. I've finally gotten around to retiring my 2009 PC build this year. Admittedly, I replaced the motherboard once when it failed, and upgraded the RAM, but that's still doing better than a dead-out-of-the-gate MBP I'm afraid. Which is a shame - I'd like more competition for my money.

RandomOpinion 10y ago

> spies on you Enough with this rubbish claim, please. Everyone I've asked to actually substantiate it resorts to angry handwaving. How about you? The telemetry collects crash and feature usage data, the same as macOS and all of the phone OSes does. You want that on because it tells MS where the bugs are. If you turn it off, you don't get to complain about bugs because MS has no idea you encountered any.

eth0up 10y ago
I have no auto-telemetry activated in my OS. I've also deactivated it in my browser, Firefox, through the about:config settings. However, I am free to file a bug-report anytime I wish, as is anyone else. Referring to concerns about the contents of this telemetry as "rubbish" is every bit as potentially unreasonable as claiming to know precisely what it contains; unless you do – in which case you might provide some strong citations verifying the telemetry contents exclusively as "crash and feature usage data", and to be extra helpful, clear definitions of "feature usage" in that particular context.
eridius 10y ago
AIUI, Microsoft collects a ton of data. Apple doesn't. Apple collects crashes and some fairly basic (very anonymized) usage data, but it also asks you up-front during installation/setup whether you want to enable this kind of reporting. But from what I keep seeing people say on the internet, it sounds like Windows is constantly reporting data home to Microsoft rather than just sending crashes/bugs and other basic info.

smrtinsert 10y ago

Once a company is on the defensive like this, you know its actually dead in the water. The point still stands, the innovation is with M$ for now. Maybe Apple will come back with something years from now - maybe not.

gchokov 10y ago

Thank you for the comment. It's rare to find reasonable responses in AAPL vs MSFT discussions lately.

SecConsult 10y ago

Dumbest apple fanboi I've seen today and it's 9AM. Apple just oversells security and "cool" design. But in reality its just expensive garbage, no real hardware power, no real security

sctb 10y ago
Please don't insult other community members like this here.

duaneb 10y ago

Your argument seems to come down to the idea that apple products are good investments. However, this isn't much use if they keep ignoring how their users use their computers. All I wanted was the same product line with 32 gigs of memory. Looks like I'll never get that computer. What's the point in investing heavily in a different computing future than you want? Microsoft may not be any better on the software end of things, but at least they're doing interesting things with hardware, WITHOUT killing what works.

tomwilson 10y ago
You'll get that computer in 2018 when the quad core intel chip that supports lpddr4 or whatever is out.

bch 10y ago

> OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. Are you talking about this[0] (which seems inconclusive), or something else? All other spying incidents I see from Lenovo are software-based. [0] http://www.geek.com/chips/spy-agencies-shun-lenovo-finding-backdoors-built-into-the-hardware-1563801/ http://www.geek.com/chips/spy-agencies-shun-lenovo-finding-b...