10 ms·

Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro? I'm not a developer. I run an online business and use a MacBook Pro for video recording, e

by graeme 10y ago

Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro? I'm not a developer. I run an online business and use a MacBook Pro for video recording, editing, and general website admin. I needed the extra processing power, and the ports. The new model has me apprehensive, though I'll certainly look at it. What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though?

sjtgraham 10y ago
> What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though? Apple doesn't seem to know or care. I don't know who this MBP is for. Increasingly less people can justify an Apple macOS portable when an iOS device covers their requirements satisfactorily and it doesn't meet the needs of many professionals at all (present and anticipated needs for the machine's useful life). Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM.
- freehunter 10y ago
  >Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM. That's how Apple has behaved since day 1, save for the few years when Sculley was at the helm.
- initram 10y ago
  > Apple doesn't seem to know or care. Oh nonsense! They showed like a dozen ways that the new touch pad alone makes using professional apps easier, faster, and generally better in their keynote. They are clearly thinking specifically of the professional market. Whether they hit their mark or not is up to the market to decide. The new computers are already back-ordered by 4-5 weeks, so clearly someone's ordering them.
  - smrtinsert 10y ago
    The new touch pad looks ridiculous. It looks like novelty they're throwing out to placate the masses they get a real touch screen together behind the scenes. I have absolutely 0 desire to use a tiny strip of touch above a perfectly good keyboard.
    - sxcurry 10y ago
      And the good news is .... you don't have to!
      - kalleboo 10y ago
        You'll still have to pay for it if you want a 15" macOS laptop though (unless you want to buy old hardware)
    - jhou2 10y ago
      I agree with you. But I think the touch pad is a harbinger of things to come. The eventual goal is probably a touch pad keyboard, one that reconfigures depending on the circumstances. It might even be like the Star Trek NG consoles eventually. I think it might be possible to use the haptic touch on a localized level such that each key press causes a sense of typing feedback.
  - cinquemb 10y ago
    >The new computers are already back-ordered by 4-5 weeks, so clearly someone's ordering them. Does them being back-ordered matter much (outside of annoyance to consumers)? Wouldn't it be more informative to see the absolute numbers of back orders now relative to the numbers for previous releases? For all we (public) know is that the back-ordered demand could be from smaller supply initial supply, not necessarily from record demand. Are such numbers public knowledge?
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    The new touchpad got so big it looks impossible to type without touchpad activity. Isn't the illusion of scarcity and back orders from product launch 101 to encourage higher demand?
    - mrexroad 10y ago
      Have you tried it out yet? I haven't, but my assumption is that false touch events would be pretty trivial to filter out--especially since there's no longer a mechanical click.
  - toyg 10y ago
    > back-ordered by 4-5 weeks Lol, they were 4 weeks "back ordered" the minute they went on sale. It's not strange Apple keeps pulling this stunt (after all, they save on production costs by not actually manufacturing anything until orders come in), but it's really baffling how people keep pointing at it as a sign of success. Even the most unpopular car manufacturer will make you wait a month for a car.
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      I know a few people who preordered the iPhone 7 the minute it was available online. By the morning, it was up to a week (or more depending on the model). It's not an artificial shortage if they really are out. Do you really think a factory can churn out the millions of phones needed in just a few months?
      - Kudos 10y ago
        Except the parent commenter meant literally the minute, not later that day. Only the base 13" model was available to ship quickly, the rest were launched with a 4-5 week delay.
        colejohnson66 10y ago
        I'm certain that's probably because the product was finalized too late to begin production early, not an artificial shortage.
        toyg 10y ago
        Production of the low-end model was fine though, uh? How convenient! This is exactly the same that happened with the 2012 redesign. I'm sure it's all a coincidence though. Uh-uh. (btw: "I'm certain that's probably" says it all, really.)
- stomato 10y ago
  > Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM. Not sure what you mean. If they made the computer much faster, I imagine it'd get too hot or noisy. The main failure IMO was that the only real innovation was a touch bar replacing function keys that as far as I can tell no one asked for or wanted. However, macOS still beats Windows 10 because it's more intuitive and usable and has fewer quirks. I don't want one of these because of the touchbar, though. It just seems unnecessary, and I wish they would've waited on a more practical innovation that would solve a problem and not remove physical keys and be a distraction and take away from design aesthetics.
  - NolF 10y ago
    MacOS has plenty quirks for me though... I cannot get it to reliably connect to a win10 samba server (my android or boot camp give me no trouble). I should probably blame Google, but the ATF app sucks and gives a lot of problems transferring large or numerous files (ended up using WiFi... I get periodic blue screens (kernel panics) from using Chrome. When finder crashes I can't seem to be able to initiate it without a hard restart... I have had it for 3 years and it's only been one thing after another. I love some features, but the trouble on a day to day basis is not worth it.
    - stomato 10y ago
      If they were so much trouble, why did IBM deploy them stating they are 3x less expensive overall including support? http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
      - majewsky 10y ago
        My guess (from experience with using a Macbook at work in a similarly large IT company) is that their corporate Windows image has a huge pile of shit bundled into it for historical reasons that breaks all the time, while the Mac image is relatively frugal. I can observe a slow tendency that our corporate Mac image piles on more and more junk over time, probably because more people are using Macs than the year before and thus IT allocates more headcount to work on Mac customizations.
c0nducktr 10y ago
> What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think the new MBPs are, well... not good, considering the price. I really like my 2012 MacBook Air. It's still going strong, although I wish I had went for the 8GB of RAM instead of just 4. But when I was talking about the new models with my friends and coworkers, a lot of us shared one thought: We don't think it's worth the money, but we can't spend $2000 on a laptop anyway, so whatever. So we're not the target market. It seems that people here don't really want one either, so 'Developers who frequent Hacker News' also doesn't seem to be the target... It seems like maybe it's just 'wealthy people who want a sleek-looking, well made piece of hardware', which it is. Maybe it includes businesses that will provide one to their employees, and will buy the extra dongles and whatnot. There's probably a lot of them in each group. If I had the money, and didn't care that it didn't have the fastest processor, the ability to have a crazy amount of RAM, and would need an extra damn cable just to connect my iPhone, I would love to buy one too. One thing seems pretty certain, and it's that there is room for a competitor to jump in and make a great laptop for the people who are looking for something different. I really hope someone can make it work.
- DanHulton 10y ago
  I really wish I agreed with you. Unfortunately, there's literally nobody who can step in here and make a truly competitive product, since it won't run the same OS. I mean, I develop for the web, so I could very well switch to Windows or Linux at this point, and after some pain points, I'd probably be back up and running and around 90% as happy as I was before. But that last 10%, where things don't work quite like I want them to, well, that would grate. And over time, I'm probably going to grow to hate that machine. Plus, what about people who make iOS apps? Or heck, even just develop for the Mac? There's literally no other option than a Mac. This is a big part of why people are so upset, is because we can't just wait for a competitor to jump in and save us. We've let ourselves become dependant on Apple, and -- like you put it -- we seem not to be the target market anymore. As much our fault as theirs maybe, I'm not one to judge, but it still sucks.
  - rukuu001 10y ago
jsz0 10y ago
> Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro? A lot of professionals have workflows / infrastructure that does not rely on the specs of any individual computer. Past a certain point it's the only practical approach for scaling. I suspect the vocal minority are the users in the upper end of the prosumer range who can't really justify moving to truly pro workflows / infrastructure.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > I suspect the vocal minority are the users in the upper end of the prosumer range who can't really justify moving to truly pro workflows / infrastructure. Are you suggesting that they are Pro'ing it wrong?! Your comment reeks of no True Scotsman: if a persons workflow is local, then it's not "truly pro". You seem to be forgetting that not all people can be wired into the pro infrastructure all every time they need to do work (travel, connectivity).
  - jsz0 10y ago
    > Are you suggesting that they are Pro'ing it wrong?! If what they're doing works for them it's not wrong but in this case it's not working anymore. Now they have to switch operating systems, software and workflows just because a specific model of laptop wasn't updated at exactly the right time. Switching to PC laptops may be an option for some but they will still have to depend on Intel/AMD and PC OEMs to provide them with an option that perfectly fits their needs. That's only a slightly safer bet. It's not practical for everyone to build out a pro infrastructure for themselves but (especially in the case of developers) it's at least something they need to consider.
addicted 10y ago
A different way to put your question, is how do the design goals of the MacBook differ from the MacBook Pro? As far as I can tell, the design goals are the same. The difference is that the Pros are more expensive.
pabloski 10y ago
"Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro?". NO!!! They are the target of this machine. After all it is called Macbook Pro for a reason. Consumers don't need Macbook Pros, they need at max Macbook Airs. A lot of them can be served by iPad Pros. And the vast majority by iPhones. So yes, Apple is shooting itself in the foot.

by graeme 10y ago

sjtgraham 10y ago

> What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though? Apple doesn't seem to know or care. I don't know who this MBP is for. Increasingly less people can justify an Apple macOS portable when an iOS device covers their requirements satisfactorily and it doesn't meet the needs of many professionals at all (present and anticipated needs for the machine's useful life). Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM.

freehunter 10y ago
>Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM. That's how Apple has behaved since day 1, save for the few years when Sculley was at the helm.
initram 10y ago
> Apple doesn't seem to know or care. Oh nonsense! They showed like a dozen ways that the new touch pad alone makes using professional apps easier, faster, and generally better in their keynote. They are clearly thinking specifically of the professional market. Whether they hit their mark or not is up to the market to decide. The new computers are already back-ordered by 4-5 weeks, so clearly someone's ordering them.
- smrtinsert 10y ago
  The new touch pad looks ridiculous. It looks like novelty they're throwing out to placate the masses they get a real touch screen together behind the scenes. I have absolutely 0 desire to use a tiny strip of touch above a perfectly good keyboard.
  - sxcurry 10y ago
    And the good news is .... you don't have to!
    - kalleboo 10y ago
      You'll still have to pay for it if you want a 15" macOS laptop though (unless you want to buy old hardware)
  - jhou2 10y ago
    I agree with you. But I think the touch pad is a harbinger of things to come. The eventual goal is probably a touch pad keyboard, one that reconfigures depending on the circumstances. It might even be like the Star Trek NG consoles eventually. I think it might be possible to use the haptic touch on a localized level such that each key press causes a sense of typing feedback.
- cinquemb 10y ago
  >The new computers are already back-ordered by 4-5 weeks, so clearly someone's ordering them. Does them being back-ordered matter much (outside of annoyance to consumers)? Wouldn't it be more informative to see the absolute numbers of back orders now relative to the numbers for previous releases? For all we (public) know is that the back-ordered demand could be from smaller supply initial supply, not necessarily from record demand. Are such numbers public knowledge?
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  The new touchpad got so big it looks impossible to type without touchpad activity. Isn't the illusion of scarcity and back orders from product launch 101 to encourage higher demand?
  - mrexroad 10y ago
    Have you tried it out yet? I haven't, but my assumption is that false touch events would be pretty trivial to filter out--especially since there's no longer a mechanical click.
- toyg 10y ago
  > back-ordered by 4-5 weeks Lol, they were 4 weeks "back ordered" the minute they went on sale. It's not strange Apple keeps pulling this stunt (after all, they save on production costs by not actually manufacturing anything until orders come in), but it's really baffling how people keep pointing at it as a sign of success. Even the most unpopular car manufacturer will make you wait a month for a car.
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    I know a few people who preordered the iPhone 7 the minute it was available online. By the morning, it was up to a week (or more depending on the model). It's not an artificial shortage if they really are out. Do you really think a factory can churn out the millions of phones needed in just a few months?
    - Kudos 10y ago
      Except the parent commenter meant literally the minute, not later that day. Only the base 13" model was available to ship quickly, the rest were launched with a 4-5 week delay.
      - colejohnson66 10y ago
        I'm certain that's probably because the product was finalized too late to begin production early, not an artificial shortage.
        toyg 10y ago
        Production of the low-end model was fine though, uh? How convenient! This is exactly the same that happened with the 2012 redesign. I'm sure it's all a coincidence though. Uh-uh. (btw: "I'm certain that's probably" says it all, really.)
stomato 10y ago
> Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM. Not sure what you mean. If they made the computer much faster, I imagine it'd get too hot or noisy. The main failure IMO was that the only real innovation was a touch bar replacing function keys that as far as I can tell no one asked for or wanted. However, macOS still beats Windows 10 because it's more intuitive and usable and has fewer quirks. I don't want one of these because of the touchbar, though. It just seems unnecessary, and I wish they would've waited on a more practical innovation that would solve a problem and not remove physical keys and be a distraction and take away from design aesthetics.
- NolF 10y ago
  MacOS has plenty quirks for me though... I cannot get it to reliably connect to a win10 samba server (my android or boot camp give me no trouble). I should probably blame Google, but the ATF app sucks and gives a lot of problems transferring large or numerous files (ended up using WiFi... I get periodic blue screens (kernel panics) from using Chrome. When finder crashes I can't seem to be able to initiate it without a hard restart... I have had it for 3 years and it's only been one thing after another. I love some features, but the trouble on a day to day basis is not worth it.
  - stomato 10y ago
    If they were so much trouble, why did IBM deploy them stating they are 3x less expensive overall including support? http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
    - majewsky 10y ago
      My guess (from experience with using a Macbook at work in a similarly large IT company) is that their corporate Windows image has a huge pile of shit bundled into it for historical reasons that breaks all the time, while the Mac image is relatively frugal. I can observe a slow tendency that our corporate Mac image piles on more and more junk over time, probably because more people are using Macs than the year before and thus IT allocates more headcount to work on Mac customizations.

c0nducktr 10y ago

> What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think the new MBPs are, well... not good, considering the price. I really like my 2012 MacBook Air. It's still going strong, although I wish I had went for the 8GB of RAM instead of just 4. But when I was talking about the new models with my friends and coworkers, a lot of us shared one thought: We don't think it's worth the money, but we can't spend $2000 on a laptop anyway, so whatever. So we're not the target market. It seems that people here don't really want one either, so 'Developers who frequent Hacker News' also doesn't seem to be the target... It seems like maybe it's just 'wealthy people who want a sleek-looking, well made piece of hardware', which it is. Maybe it includes businesses that will provide one to their employees, and will buy the extra dongles and whatnot. There's probably a lot of them in each group. If I had the money, and didn't care that it didn't have the fastest processor, the ability to have a crazy amount of RAM, and would need an extra damn cable just to connect my iPhone, I would love to buy one too. One thing seems pretty certain, and it's that there is room for a competitor to jump in and make a great laptop for the people who are looking for something different. I really hope someone can make it work.

DanHulton 10y ago
I really wish I agreed with you. Unfortunately, there's literally nobody who can step in here and make a truly competitive product, since it won't run the same OS. I mean, I develop for the web, so I could very well switch to Windows or Linux at this point, and after some pain points, I'd probably be back up and running and around 90% as happy as I was before. But that last 10%, where things don't work quite like I want them to, well, that would grate. And over time, I'm probably going to grow to hate that machine. Plus, what about people who make iOS apps? Or heck, even just develop for the Mac? There's literally no other option than a Mac. This is a big part of why people are so upset, is because we can't just wait for a competitor to jump in and save us. We've let ourselves become dependant on Apple, and -- like you put it -- we seem not to be the target market anymore. As much our fault as theirs maybe, I'm not one to judge, but it still sucks.
- rukuu001 10y ago

jsz0 10y ago

> Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro? A lot of professionals have workflows / infrastructure that does not rely on the specs of any individual computer. Past a certain point it's the only practical approach for scaling. I suspect the vocal minority are the users in the upper end of the prosumer range who can't really justify moving to truly pro workflows / infrastructure.

sangnoir 10y ago
> I suspect the vocal minority are the users in the upper end of the prosumer range who can't really justify moving to truly pro workflows / infrastructure. Are you suggesting that they are Pro'ing it wrong?! Your comment reeks of no True Scotsman: if a persons workflow is local, then it's not "truly pro". You seem to be forgetting that not all people can be wired into the pro infrastructure all every time they need to do work (travel, connectivity).
- jsz0 10y ago
  > Are you suggesting that they are Pro'ing it wrong?! If what they're doing works for them it's not wrong but in this case it's not working anymore. Now they have to switch operating systems, software and workflows just because a specific model of laptop wasn't updated at exactly the right time. Switching to PC laptops may be an option for some but they will still have to depend on Intel/AMD and PC OEMs to provide them with an option that perfectly fits their needs. That's only a slightly safer bet. It's not practical for everyone to build out a pro infrastructure for themselves but (especially in the case of developers) it's at least something they need to consider.

addicted 10y ago

A different way to put your question, is how do the design goals of the MacBook differ from the MacBook Pro? As far as I can tell, the design goals are the same. The difference is that the Pros are more expensive.

pabloski 10y ago

"Are professional users really a "vocal minority" of the MacBook Pro?". NO!!! They are the target of this machine. After all it is called Macbook Pro for a reason. Consumers don't need Macbook Pros, they need at max Macbook Airs. A lot of them can be served by iPad Pros. And the vast majority by iPhones. So yes, Apple is shooting itself in the foot.