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Not to beat a dead horse but I'm also considering abandoning Apple as I'm due an upgrade now. I'm still using a MBP from 2010 that I added an SSD and some extr

Not to beat a dead horse but I'm also considering abandoning Apple as I'm due an upgrade now. I'm still using a MBP from 2010 that I added an SSD and some extra ram too, it's still going strong although showing it's age it has served me very well over the years. Gluing parts in that used to be user replaceable, models now are 16gb of ram only (can someone explain this one?), thinness for thinness sake, removing standard ports etc. I can live with non-apple hardware but I would much prefer to use MacOS. Considering dual-booting a hackingtosh/linux. I get the impression they are trying to transition their laptops to life cycles closer to their phones and I won't be coming along for the ride.

sotojuan 10y ago
If you (or anyone reading) are attached to macOS in any way, getting a maxed out 2015 Macbook Pro might be a decent option. Refurbished might be a cheaper option as well. Sure, you're paying for "older" hardware, so I can understand being hesitant, but they still hold up fine and will last for a long time. Note that I don't use virtual machines, games, or video editing software so the 16gb of RAM is more than enough.
- joshmanders 10y ago
  > Note that I don't use virtual machines, games, or video editing software so the 16gb of RAM is more than enough. I don't use games or video editing software, but I have 2 virtualbox machines running, one with Debian and one with Windows 10 for testing purposes, along with always on Docker containers. My 16GB of ram on my mid-2015 near maxed out 15" rMBP with a Dell 27" 4k display hooked up holds up very well.
uptown 10y ago
> "models now are 16gb of ram only (can someone explain this one?)" "Apple told me MBP maxes out at 16GB RAM because LPDDR3 limit is 16GB/chip; Apple uses it because of performance/energy ratio." https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944 https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944 So basically, it needed to be thin and light ... because, Apple ... which limits the size of the battery. And more RAM would consume more energy, requiring the device to potentially be thicker and heavier to accommodate a larger battery in order to meet their runtime expectations.
- MikeKusold 10y ago
  If it was all about battery savings, then why not use DDR4? DDR4 is more power efficient [1] [1] http://www.memcon.com/pdfs/proceedings2013/track2/Designing_for_DDR4_Power_and_Performance.pdf http://www.memcon.com/pdfs/proceedings2013/track2/Designing_...
  - uptown 10y ago
    Cost. Margins. Their current price point is already an increase. Not sure what using DDR4 would do to that but presumably newer tech translates to higher costs.
  - nodamage 10y ago
    Your link compares DDR4 against DDR3, but you should be comparing DDR4 against LPDDR3.
    - kornholi 10y ago
      Why not LPDDR4 against LPDDR3? LPDDR4 is also more efficient and has better density.
      - nodamage 10y ago
        Skylake does not support LPDDR4, nor does Kaby Lake (except with their ultra-low power chips). I don't think we're going to see 32 GB RAM in the ultrabook category until LPDDR4 is supported by Intel in their mobile-class processors. Edit: AnandTech suggests that LPDDR3 is 25-30% more power efficient than DDR4. (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6326/additional-details-on-microns-ddr3lrs-ddr4rs-and-other-memory http://www.anandtech.com/show/6326/additional-details-on-mic...)
        wila 10y ago
        That might be so, but the macbook air is the ultrabook series and the mac book pro should be the work horse series.
ktRolster 10y ago
>models now are 16gb of ram only Do you have a use for more than 16gb? Serious question.
- chrisfosterelli 10y ago
  I'm often noticing a ton of swapping going on, causing serious system-wide lag, when I have a few dozen Chrome tabs and two VM's running in addition to a few other standard programs which use a lot of memory (Slack). It's not hard to rub up against 16GB in a standard developer workflow.
  - jen20 10y ago
    Glad to know it's not just me that sees performance and memory issues with Slack...
  - jonlorusso 10y ago
    > a few dozen Chrome tabs There's your problem.
    - newscracker 10y ago
      I agree. Chrome is a big bloat on Windows and OS X/macOS. I find Safari to be quite lean (memory and energy consumption) on OS X/macOS. I miss that Firefox is not keeping up since it's the most flexible browser for my use.
    - mickronome 10y ago
      No not really, while Chrome certainly isn't perfect it's usually using less than 10% of my memory. I don't think the objections would go away if it supported 17GB, or even 18GB.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- sudobear 10y ago
  Running multiple VMs
Razengan 10y ago
> models now are 16gb of ram only (can someone explain this one?) Which other laptop were you going to buy that supports more than 16 GB? How much does it cost? What's it size, weight, color depth and battery life? As far as I know, the new Surface Book also only supports 16 GB of RAM. Or the new Razer Blade. The Razer Blade Pro can have 32GB of RAM, but it is twice as heavy and twice the volume of the 15" MBP.
- yuhong 10y ago
  The standard two slot SO-DIMM laptops can support 32 GB now thanks to 8Gbit DDR4. There was also 8Gbit DDR3 that is less common and more expensive, but is supported by Broadwell for example.
- fgandiya 10y ago
  Lenovo have a bunch of laptops which support 32GB and even 64GB RAM at under $2k like the T460. Then again, some of them don't have great SSDs or displays. http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpage/promotions/weekly-sale/thinkpad-laptops/ http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpage/promotions/weekly-s...
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Compare the new rMBP against a Thinkpad P50 that is much cheaper yet 4K, Xeon and upto 64GB. It's a bit of a hulk being the weight of a 2012 MBP.
- toyg 10y ago
  The field was even more scarce 4 years ago. At the time, 16gb in a laptop was extremely rare. Apple won a lot of business (including mine) by showing that it was possible. Some people (including me) thought they would have spent some of the following 4 years figuring out how to keep moving up. Unfortunately, it looks like they actually spent that time pushing an MBP into an MBA chassis and adding a touch sensor that other manufacturers were shipping 10 years ago.
  - yuhong 10y ago
    Yea, it was 4Gbit DDR3 DRAM that made it possible in most laptops. We are now moving to 8Gbit DDR4.
brandon272 10y ago
What are you considering as your next purchase?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
newscracker 10y ago
> I get the impression they are trying to transition their laptops to life cycles closer to their phones and I won't be coming along for the ride. Does that lifecycle mean a refresh every year for the MBP (or gasp, other Macs)??? That would have millions of people screaming with joy if that ever happened. Based on the last few years, it's quite clear that Apple does not believe in spec refreshes or in selling more of the Mac lineup. Apple seems to want to focus only on portables a little bit, followed by all-in-ones (iMac). Sadly, it seems like Macs have become hobby items for Apple. Something to work on with spare time. I'm very frustrated that the Mac mini has not been updated for more than two years and that it doesn't have user replaceable RAM and HDD.

sotojuan 10y ago

If you (or anyone reading) are attached to macOS in any way, getting a maxed out 2015 Macbook Pro might be a decent option. Refurbished might be a cheaper option as well. Sure, you're paying for "older" hardware, so I can understand being hesitant, but they still hold up fine and will last for a long time. Note that I don't use virtual machines, games, or video editing software so the 16gb of RAM is more than enough.

joshmanders 10y ago
> Note that I don't use virtual machines, games, or video editing software so the 16gb of RAM is more than enough. I don't use games or video editing software, but I have 2 virtualbox machines running, one with Debian and one with Windows 10 for testing purposes, along with always on Docker containers. My 16GB of ram on my mid-2015 near maxed out 15" rMBP with a Dell 27" 4k display hooked up holds up very well.

uptown 10y ago

> "models now are 16gb of ram only (can someone explain this one?)" "Apple told me MBP maxes out at 16GB RAM because LPDDR3 limit is 16GB/chip; Apple uses it because of performance/energy ratio." https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944 https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944 So basically, it needed to be thin and light ... because, Apple ... which limits the size of the battery. And more RAM would consume more energy, requiring the device to potentially be thicker and heavier to accommodate a larger battery in order to meet their runtime expectations.

MikeKusold 10y ago
If it was all about battery savings, then why not use DDR4? DDR4 is more power efficient [1] [1] http://www.memcon.com/pdfs/proceedings2013/track2/Designing_for_DDR4_Power_and_Performance.pdf http://www.memcon.com/pdfs/proceedings2013/track2/Designing_...
- uptown 10y ago
  Cost. Margins. Their current price point is already an increase. Not sure what using DDR4 would do to that but presumably newer tech translates to higher costs.
- nodamage 10y ago
  Your link compares DDR4 against DDR3, but you should be comparing DDR4 against LPDDR3.
  - kornholi 10y ago
    Why not LPDDR4 against LPDDR3? LPDDR4 is also more efficient and has better density.
    - nodamage 10y ago
      Skylake does not support LPDDR4, nor does Kaby Lake (except with their ultra-low power chips). I don't think we're going to see 32 GB RAM in the ultrabook category until LPDDR4 is supported by Intel in their mobile-class processors. Edit: AnandTech suggests that LPDDR3 is 25-30% more power efficient than DDR4. (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6326/additional-details-on-microns-ddr3lrs-ddr4rs-and-other-memory http://www.anandtech.com/show/6326/additional-details-on-mic...)
      - wila 10y ago
        That might be so, but the macbook air is the ultrabook series and the mac book pro should be the work horse series.

ktRolster 10y ago

>models now are 16gb of ram only Do you have a use for more than 16gb? Serious question.

chrisfosterelli 10y ago
I'm often noticing a ton of swapping going on, causing serious system-wide lag, when I have a few dozen Chrome tabs and two VM's running in addition to a few other standard programs which use a lot of memory (Slack). It's not hard to rub up against 16GB in a standard developer workflow.
- jen20 10y ago
  Glad to know it's not just me that sees performance and memory issues with Slack...
- jonlorusso 10y ago
  > a few dozen Chrome tabs There's your problem.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    I agree. Chrome is a big bloat on Windows and OS X/macOS. I find Safari to be quite lean (memory and energy consumption) on OS X/macOS. I miss that Firefox is not keeping up since it's the most flexible browser for my use.
  - mickronome 10y ago
    No not really, while Chrome certainly isn't perfect it's usually using less than 10% of my memory. I don't think the objections would go away if it supported 17GB, or even 18GB.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
sudobear 10y ago
Running multiple VMs

Razengan 10y ago

> models now are 16gb of ram only (can someone explain this one?) Which other laptop were you going to buy that supports more than 16 GB? How much does it cost? What's it size, weight, color depth and battery life? As far as I know, the new Surface Book also only supports 16 GB of RAM. Or the new Razer Blade. The Razer Blade Pro can have 32GB of RAM, but it is twice as heavy and twice the volume of the 15" MBP.

yuhong 10y ago
The standard two slot SO-DIMM laptops can support 32 GB now thanks to 8Gbit DDR4. There was also 8Gbit DDR3 that is less common and more expensive, but is supported by Broadwell for example.
fgandiya 10y ago
Lenovo have a bunch of laptops which support 32GB and even 64GB RAM at under $2k like the T460. Then again, some of them don't have great SSDs or displays. http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpage/promotions/weekly-sale/thinkpad-laptops/ http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpage/promotions/weekly-s...
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Compare the new rMBP against a Thinkpad P50 that is much cheaper yet 4K, Xeon and upto 64GB. It's a bit of a hulk being the weight of a 2012 MBP.
toyg 10y ago
The field was even more scarce 4 years ago. At the time, 16gb in a laptop was extremely rare. Apple won a lot of business (including mine) by showing that it was possible. Some people (including me) thought they would have spent some of the following 4 years figuring out how to keep moving up. Unfortunately, it looks like they actually spent that time pushing an MBP into an MBA chassis and adding a touch sensor that other manufacturers were shipping 10 years ago.
- yuhong 10y ago
  Yea, it was 4Gbit DDR3 DRAM that made it possible in most laptops. We are now moving to 8Gbit DDR4.

brandon272 10y ago

What are you considering as your next purchase?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

newscracker 10y ago

> I get the impression they are trying to transition their laptops to life cycles closer to their phones and I won't be coming along for the ride. Does that lifecycle mean a refresh every year for the MBP (or gasp, other Macs)??? That would have millions of people screaming with joy if that ever happened. Based on the last few years, it's quite clear that Apple does not believe in spec refreshes or in selling more of the Mac lineup. Apple seems to want to focus only on portables a little bit, followed by all-in-ones (iMac). Sadly, it seems like Macs have become hobby items for Apple. Something to work on with spare time. I'm very frustrated that the Mac mini has not been updated for more than two years and that it doesn't have user replaceable RAM and HDD.