5 ms·

What? Do install LaTeX. I don't know (and frankly don't care) how hard it is under Windows, Mac or Android, but it has been readily available from the package

by tagrun 10y ago

What? Do install LaTeX. I don't know (and frankly don't care) how hard it is under Windows, Mac or Android, but it has been readily available from the package managers with GNU/* and most BSDs for decades, easy to install and use. There are plenty of editors like gummi, kile, texmacs or lyx. Seriously. You're asking people to give up their freedoms for what? To avoid typing a single line "sudo apt-get install gummi texlive-latex-base"? I personally do stay away from "cloud"y things (or whatever buzzword you prefer for SaaSS in the stylish Apple-land), and recommend people that I care about around me to do so: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...

detaro 10y ago
Windows has easy-to-use distributions of LaTeX as well (e.g. MikTex).
kevindong 10y ago
I personally use www.sharelatex.com (which is open sourced under the AGPL license). Downloading LaTeX locally on macOS (or rather, Mac OS X as it was called at the time) is not very difficult. As I recall, it's basically just: download this .pkg file, run it, and you're set. That being said, I did _not_ enjoy having LaTeX installed locally. It wasn't harmful, it just wasn't at all beneficial compared to using an online LaTeX service. The install size is easily tens of thousands of files (totalling a couple GBs), most of which are only a couple hundred KBs each. The vast majority of those files went unused. It clogged up my file system, gave me a marginal amount of benefits, and figuring out how to change the config files to do one _tiny_ thing was horrifically difficult. As a result, I migrated to using ShareLaTeX. It was just simpler than having to manage the install myself. The value proposition of a (hosted instance of) ShareLaTeX is that I can use LaTeX from any computer (connected to the Internet) to access any of my automatically synchronized files and have an automatically updated install of LaTeX. I personally found that value proposition worthwhile.
- tagrun 10y ago
  This is a false anecdotal dichotomy: either install latex on your computer at the cost of "clogging up your filesystem" (whatever that means), or give up your freedoms. textlive-most (which is a meta package which includes almost everything an ordinary user need) uses 1.2GBs on Arch Linux, so for sure it's not "couple of GBs". And even if it takes a couple of GBs: I'm using ~60GBs in my root filesystem, and never experienced any "clogging" (granted, GNU/Linux doesn't use Windows Registry). If installing programs "clogs up your file system" in Apple's proprietary fork of BSD (don't know/care how they call/stylize it these days), another viable option, before throwing away your freedoms, is to consider switching to a different filesystem or operating system which doesn't "clog up" when you install new programs (and which isn't riddled with backdoors and doesn't spy on you, like Apple products do: https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.en.... ). Now I'm not sure whether this is an issue with HFS+ or a more general one within Darwin, but what is the point of having harddisks with large capacities (measured in TB these days) if you can't actually use it? > ShareLaTeX is that I can use LaTeX from any computer (connected to the Internet) to access any of my automatically synchronized files and have an automatically updated install of LaTeX. I personally found that value proposition worthwhile. I'm not seeing any convincing arguments or any "worthwhile propositions" here. With GNU/* and *BSD, that burden is on the package maintainers. System updates do include latex updates too (I know that it isn't the case with proprietary system you're using, but that's an argument for switching to a free/libre OS, not throwing away your freedoms). And I am able to synchronize my files (including .tex files) files across devices over the internet using syncthing, while still not yielding my rights and data to others, and there are plenty of FOSS alternatives to syncthing too. And even if your original dichotomy was a real dichotomy, I would encourage people to protect their freedoms, not to throw it away for convenience.
  - tagrun 10y ago
    And before you say anything about conveniences of SaaSS in collaborative work flow: I'm a professor and I've been writing papers, posters, presentations, books, etc using latex for like 2 decades. I'm pretty sure I used LaTeX more than you, and for serious stuff. This is going to be anecdotal, and I'm not going to get into details but in one instance, parts of our paper has been leaked before publication by an intern at Google (some of us were using gmail). Since then, we all moved to a private mail server and we're encrypting our correspondences with our collaborators. I know that stuff like this happens rarely, but when it happens, it hurts you. Aside from principles regarding freedoms, or the creepiness of mass-surveillance, I've already been bit by "cloud" once, so I'm more careful about this than average person. So don't ask me to trust some random dude with a cool startup, or a well-known company with my important data.

by tagrun 10y ago

detaro 10y ago

Windows has easy-to-use distributions of LaTeX as well (e.g. MikTex).

kevindong 10y ago

I personally use www.sharelatex.com (which is open sourced under the AGPL license). Downloading LaTeX locally on macOS (or rather, Mac OS X as it was called at the time) is not very difficult. As I recall, it's basically just: download this .pkg file, run it, and you're set. That being said, I did _not_ enjoy having LaTeX installed locally. It wasn't harmful, it just wasn't at all beneficial compared to using an online LaTeX service. The install size is easily tens of thousands of files (totalling a couple GBs), most of which are only a couple hundred KBs each. The vast majority of those files went unused. It clogged up my file system, gave me a marginal amount of benefits, and figuring out how to change the config files to do one _tiny_ thing was horrifically difficult. As a result, I migrated to using ShareLaTeX. It was just simpler than having to manage the install myself. The value proposition of a (hosted instance of) ShareLaTeX is that I can use LaTeX from any computer (connected to the Internet) to access any of my automatically synchronized files and have an automatically updated install of LaTeX. I personally found that value proposition worthwhile.

tagrun 10y ago
This is a false anecdotal dichotomy: either install latex on your computer at the cost of "clogging up your filesystem" (whatever that means), or give up your freedoms. textlive-most (which is a meta package which includes almost everything an ordinary user need) uses 1.2GBs on Arch Linux, so for sure it's not "couple of GBs". And even if it takes a couple of GBs: I'm using ~60GBs in my root filesystem, and never experienced any "clogging" (granted, GNU/Linux doesn't use Windows Registry). If installing programs "clogs up your file system" in Apple's proprietary fork of BSD (don't know/care how they call/stylize it these days), another viable option, before throwing away your freedoms, is to consider switching to a different filesystem or operating system which doesn't "clog up" when you install new programs (and which isn't riddled with backdoors and doesn't spy on you, like Apple products do: https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.en.... ). Now I'm not sure whether this is an issue with HFS+ or a more general one within Darwin, but what is the point of having harddisks with large capacities (measured in TB these days) if you can't actually use it? > ShareLaTeX is that I can use LaTeX from any computer (connected to the Internet) to access any of my automatically synchronized files and have an automatically updated install of LaTeX. I personally found that value proposition worthwhile. I'm not seeing any convincing arguments or any "worthwhile propositions" here. With GNU/* and *BSD, that burden is on the package maintainers. System updates do include latex updates too (I know that it isn't the case with proprietary system you're using, but that's an argument for switching to a free/libre OS, not throwing away your freedoms). And I am able to synchronize my files (including .tex files) files across devices over the internet using syncthing, while still not yielding my rights and data to others, and there are plenty of FOSS alternatives to syncthing too. And even if your original dichotomy was a real dichotomy, I would encourage people to protect their freedoms, not to throw it away for convenience.
- tagrun 10y ago
  And before you say anything about conveniences of SaaSS in collaborative work flow: I'm a professor and I've been writing papers, posters, presentations, books, etc using latex for like 2 decades. I'm pretty sure I used LaTeX more than you, and for serious stuff. This is going to be anecdotal, and I'm not going to get into details but in one instance, parts of our paper has been leaked before publication by an intern at Google (some of us were using gmail). Since then, we all moved to a private mail server and we're encrypting our correspondences with our collaborators. I know that stuff like this happens rarely, but when it happens, it hurts you. Aside from principles regarding freedoms, or the creepiness of mass-surveillance, I've already been bit by "cloud" once, so I'm more careful about this than average person. So don't ask me to trust some random dude with a cool startup, or a well-known company with my important data.