9 ms·

Of course the hyperloop is a joke. Elon Musk has zero experience or training in transportation infrastructure, but we are supposed to have faith in some idea he

Of course the hyperloop is a joke. Elon Musk has zero experience or training in transportation infrastructure, but we are supposed to have faith in some idea he farted out in a white paper, why? Because he has skillfully cultivated his image as a "genius", and we bought it? The hyperloop was nothing more than a (savvy) PR move to cement his image as a "visionary". That it actually got funded only goes to show what gullible shmucks some venture capitalists are. Edit: I worked on the LHC for several years. The challenges of maintaining a closed vacuum pipe that spanned a mere 17 miles were vast and expensive. Musk proposes doing it on an exponentially larger scale without addressing the challenges and pitfalls involved. Until he does so, I cannot take him seriously.

Someone 10y ago
The LHC has lower pressure than Hyperloop is supposed to have (1E-7 pascal, reading http://www.lhc-closer.es/taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc/0.high_vacuum http://www.lhc-closer.es/taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc/0.high_... versus 100 pascal, reading https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop#Theory_and_operation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop#Theory_and_operati...) Still quite challenging, but not in the same league, even considering that hyperloop requires way longer tunnels.
- wbl 10y ago
  The forces aren't much different, even if the allowable leakage is higher and the pumping easier.
Omniusaspirer 10y ago
Would you be able to tell us about some of the problems the LHC faced? Hyperloop aside, this is an interesting subject.
- LordHumungous 10y ago
  The tolerances on each part must be very tight. If there is a single flaw in one part, the whole vacuum fails. The challenges become exponentially greater as you scale up the diameter of the pipe, since the force on the pipe is proportional to the square of the radius. The LHC had a 50mm diameter pipe, the hyperloop proposes an 8+ foot diameter. You do the math.
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    The Hyperloop will operate at about 15 psi pressure differential maximum (i.e., one atmosphere). The Alaska Pipeline is certified to operate at 1,180 psi. It's not a problem, and minor leaks are not a problem, either. A leak that would stop a particle accelerator dead in its tracks will just make a hyperloop operate at slightly lower efficiency. Plus you can always just run the pump (any practical design will doubtless have the pumps running continously to make up for leakage, just as many ships and buildings have continuously-running bilge and sump pumps).
    - LordHumungous 10y ago
      My personal opinion is not that it can't be done, but that it's financially impractical given then huge maintenance costs compared to conventional high speed rail system.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - D_Alex 10y ago
    When you said that you worked on the LHC for several years - what was your role, and how were you involved with the vacuum system? Because your answers show a serious lack of understanding. First, part tolerances are not a particularly important issue with engineering of high vacuum systems (sealing is effected by compression of gaskets, usually soft stainless steel gaskets for UHV systems). Secondly, the difficulties in maintaining a large UHV system is usually related to "outgassing", from multiple surfaces and/or material imperfections, and are rarely due to "a single flaw in one part". Thirdly, you are using the word "exponentially" wrong, even in the context of your flawed claim which is addressed below. Finally: "the force on the pipe" is not, in a meaningful sense, proportional to the square of the radius. The forces in the pipe wall are proportional directly to the radius (formula is stress=pressure*radius/thickness), if it was otherwise pipe thickness would grow as the square of diameter and large pressurised pipes would be physically impossible. Happy to do the math for you when you need it, best to leave it to the experts.
Turing_Machine 10y ago
"The challenges of maintaining a closed vacuum pipe that spanned a mere 17 miles were vast and expensive." The vacuum level required for a particle accelerator (10^-11 torr or something like that) and the one posited for the Hyperloop (0.75 torr) are so far apart that they have virtually nothing in common.
- LordHumungous 10y ago
  That is actually a valid point, Musk only proposes a partial vacuum which is a lot different from a pure vacuum. However, I think that is still a lot to ask for heavily used transit infrastructure.
  - smokeyj 10y ago
    It almost sounds like you have no credibility on the matter along with a highly critical opinion of Musk.
    - LordHumungous 10y ago
      Well this is the internet. We're all just assholes with opinions, aren't we?
      - cvs268 10y ago
        Assholes on the internet. Now that's an image i won't be forgetting soon. Reminds me of the following quote: Assholes ARE like opinions - Everyone has one.
    - paulsutter 10y ago
      Just the opposite - agreeing with TuringMachine boosted his credibility for me.
    - pizza 10y ago
      Heaven forbid someone updates their beliefs
D_Alex 10y ago
Elon Musk had zero experience building cars, yet he made Tesla happen. Perhaps a high intellect and a good general purpose engineering training can accomplish more than you think. You, on the other hand, are overwhelmed by the challenge of maintaining vacuum in a tube that spans a mere 17 miles. At the very least, you should restrain yourself from using language like "...some idea he farted out...".
- bertiewhykovich 10y ago
  Given that the Hyperloop is failing spectacularly, "a high intellect and a good general purpose engineering training" seem empirically to not accomplish quite as much as you think they do -- although, in fairness to high intellect and good general purpose engineering training, there was never any real reason to think that they'd be able to accomplish magic.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    1) Elon Musk is not building any Hyperloop, so I don't see how its supposed failure reflects on him. 2) Which Hyperloop is failing? There are at least three groups, and as far as I know, they haven't even got close to testing the system, let alone know if it's a failure or not. I'm skeptical of the whole concept, but declaring failure at this stage is no less silly than assuming it'll definitively work.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I don't think he was alone in this, if he says it was hard, I'd assume it was hard for a whole team of world class physicists and engineers.
- robotresearcher 10y ago
  > You, on the other hand, are overwhelmed by the challenge of maintaining vacuum in a tube that spans a mere 17 miles. You say 'overwhelmed' but I'll just point out it is built and working, and at almost-perfect vacuum.
  - 10y ago
nothrabannosir 10y ago
If I take your first paragraph and replace Hyperloop with Space X, it sounds like something one could have said back when that started. Yet here we are. I'm no expert either, but that sounds rather hollow..
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  SpaceX's success is largely due to not having to perform all the hard R&D of rocketry up-front. They got that done for them, for free, by major governments in the 50s and 60s. So now SpaceX can simply build off that, making evolutionary rather than revolutionary changes to the technology and turning it into a profitable business. But Hyperloop is unexplored territory. There isn't billions/trillions of fundamental R&D already done and given away for free by somebody else. I suspect that's going to have an impact.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Hyperloop can leverage trillion in highly relevant fundamental R&D also. For example aircraft already operate at low enough external pressure to quickly kill the passengers ex: concord was under 1/20th ATM. Yet, loss of cabin pressure is a very rare situation. There is a lot of proven technology to maintain low vacuum cheaply, as a first step to achieving high vacuum. Massively improved battery technology enables reasonably high energy density's which are very much necessary. etc. Now, sure there is a lot of new tech that would be needed. But, less than you might think.

Someone 10y ago

The LHC has lower pressure than Hyperloop is supposed to have (1E-7 pascal, reading http://www.lhc-closer.es/taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc/0.high_vacuum http://www.lhc-closer.es/taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc/0.high_... versus 100 pascal, reading https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop#Theory_and_operation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop#Theory_and_operati...) Still quite challenging, but not in the same league, even considering that hyperloop requires way longer tunnels.

wbl 10y ago
The forces aren't much different, even if the allowable leakage is higher and the pumping easier.

Omniusaspirer 10y ago

Would you be able to tell us about some of the problems the LHC faced? Hyperloop aside, this is an interesting subject.

LordHumungous 10y ago
The tolerances on each part must be very tight. If there is a single flaw in one part, the whole vacuum fails. The challenges become exponentially greater as you scale up the diameter of the pipe, since the force on the pipe is proportional to the square of the radius. The LHC had a 50mm diameter pipe, the hyperloop proposes an 8+ foot diameter. You do the math.
- Turing_Machine 10y ago
  The Hyperloop will operate at about 15 psi pressure differential maximum (i.e., one atmosphere). The Alaska Pipeline is certified to operate at 1,180 psi. It's not a problem, and minor leaks are not a problem, either. A leak that would stop a particle accelerator dead in its tracks will just make a hyperloop operate at slightly lower efficiency. Plus you can always just run the pump (any practical design will doubtless have the pumps running continously to make up for leakage, just as many ships and buildings have continuously-running bilge and sump pumps).
  - LordHumungous 10y ago
    My personal opinion is not that it can't be done, but that it's financially impractical given then huge maintenance costs compared to conventional high speed rail system.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- D_Alex 10y ago
  When you said that you worked on the LHC for several years - what was your role, and how were you involved with the vacuum system? Because your answers show a serious lack of understanding. First, part tolerances are not a particularly important issue with engineering of high vacuum systems (sealing is effected by compression of gaskets, usually soft stainless steel gaskets for UHV systems). Secondly, the difficulties in maintaining a large UHV system is usually related to "outgassing", from multiple surfaces and/or material imperfections, and are rarely due to "a single flaw in one part". Thirdly, you are using the word "exponentially" wrong, even in the context of your flawed claim which is addressed below. Finally: "the force on the pipe" is not, in a meaningful sense, proportional to the square of the radius. The forces in the pipe wall are proportional directly to the radius (formula is stress=pressure*radius/thickness), if it was otherwise pipe thickness would grow as the square of diameter and large pressurised pipes would be physically impossible. Happy to do the math for you when you need it, best to leave it to the experts.

Turing_Machine 10y ago

"The challenges of maintaining a closed vacuum pipe that spanned a mere 17 miles were vast and expensive." The vacuum level required for a particle accelerator (10^-11 torr or something like that) and the one posited for the Hyperloop (0.75 torr) are so far apart that they have virtually nothing in common.

LordHumungous 10y ago
That is actually a valid point, Musk only proposes a partial vacuum which is a lot different from a pure vacuum. However, I think that is still a lot to ask for heavily used transit infrastructure.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  It almost sounds like you have no credibility on the matter along with a highly critical opinion of Musk.
  - LordHumungous 10y ago
    Well this is the internet. We're all just assholes with opinions, aren't we?
    - cvs268 10y ago
      Assholes on the internet. Now that's an image i won't be forgetting soon. Reminds me of the following quote: Assholes ARE like opinions - Everyone has one.
  - paulsutter 10y ago
    Just the opposite - agreeing with TuringMachine boosted his credibility for me.
  - pizza 10y ago
    Heaven forbid someone updates their beliefs

D_Alex 10y ago

Elon Musk had zero experience building cars, yet he made Tesla happen. Perhaps a high intellect and a good general purpose engineering training can accomplish more than you think. You, on the other hand, are overwhelmed by the challenge of maintaining vacuum in a tube that spans a mere 17 miles. At the very least, you should restrain yourself from using language like "...some idea he farted out...".

bertiewhykovich 10y ago
Given that the Hyperloop is failing spectacularly, "a high intellect and a good general purpose engineering training" seem empirically to not accomplish quite as much as you think they do -- although, in fairness to high intellect and good general purpose engineering training, there was never any real reason to think that they'd be able to accomplish magic.
- icebraining 10y ago
  1) Elon Musk is not building any Hyperloop, so I don't see how its supposed failure reflects on him. 2) Which Hyperloop is failing? There are at least three groups, and as far as I know, they haven't even got close to testing the system, let alone know if it's a failure or not. I'm skeptical of the whole concept, but declaring failure at this stage is no less silly than assuming it'll definitively work.
agumonkey 10y ago
I don't think he was alone in this, if he says it was hard, I'd assume it was hard for a whole team of world class physicists and engineers.
robotresearcher 10y ago
> You, on the other hand, are overwhelmed by the challenge of maintaining vacuum in a tube that spans a mere 17 miles. You say 'overwhelmed' but I'll just point out it is built and working, and at almost-perfect vacuum.
- 10y ago

nothrabannosir 10y ago

If I take your first paragraph and replace Hyperloop with Space X, it sounds like something one could have said back when that started. Yet here we are. I'm no expert either, but that sounds rather hollow..

ubernostrum 10y ago
SpaceX's success is largely due to not having to perform all the hard R&D of rocketry up-front. They got that done for them, for free, by major governments in the 50s and 60s. So now SpaceX can simply build off that, making evolutionary rather than revolutionary changes to the technology and turning it into a profitable business. But Hyperloop is unexplored territory. There isn't billions/trillions of fundamental R&D already done and given away for free by somebody else. I suspect that's going to have an impact.
- Retric 10y ago
  Hyperloop can leverage trillion in highly relevant fundamental R&D also. For example aircraft already operate at low enough external pressure to quickly kill the passengers ex: concord was under 1/20th ATM. Yet, loss of cabin pressure is a very rare situation. There is a lot of proven technology to maintain low vacuum cheaply, as a first step to achieving high vacuum. Massively improved battery technology enables reasonably high energy density's which are very much necessary. etc. Now, sure there is a lot of new tech that would be needed. But, less than you might think.