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Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as refe

Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as reference designs in the office; they're probably the pinnacle of good keyboard design and construction however the product you're asking for (a mech switch display keyboard) already exists and it costs $1500. The reality is, that approach is not optimised for mass production and we would price out most of our market (like Apple is doing now). Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers. P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.

camoby 10y ago
Didn't you just just acquired by Apple?
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Our comms lead, Orli did issue a statement but we can't comment further on the Apple rumours. https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/ https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/
tarikjn 10y ago
Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable. The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly. I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  I agree with your points on ergo design, we did a survey with the thousands on community members and only like 4% would buy an ergo design which was lower than expected. It's important for us to address from a design perspective but we want to do incremental keyboard revision, otherwise consumers won't be able to adapt to the massive transition in a dynamic and ergo design.
  - brudgers 10y ago
    The Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 might make a good reference design. With all those programmers, they've got a pretty good dog fooding process for keyboard ergonomics. And the 4000's are very modestly priced...another good reason to have one as reference.
  - tarikjn 10y ago
    Yes, I think it makes 100% sense that you guys focus on a mobile keyboard for the step 1. And I think you guys made a very good start at it by using Apple design as a reference, using a reversible connection, and adding backlighting. From an ergonomics standpoint, Apple's keyboard is actually fairly good for a straight keyboard. When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).
jacobolus 10y ago
Neither the Model M nor the AEK II is a “pinnacle” of anything. The best keyboards were made earlier, in the 1970s. By the mid-1980s when the Model M debuted, or the early–mid 1990s of the AEK II, keyboards were already started along their downward cost-and-quality-cutting slide, albeit not yet to the final rubber dome ditch of the late 1990s through 2000s. If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990). Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound. Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder. Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
When I say I'd pay a silly price, I wasn't thinking quite Art Lebedev silly! They discontinued the nicer one (Maximus). Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys. One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic. ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  We basically redesigned the mechanism from the ground up; I can't comment on it specifically since it's all IP sensitive but a different approach whilst preserving the same tactile feel.
garyclarke27 10y ago
I've been wanting a keyboard like this for years, well done I hope you make a success of it. I use a steelseries keyboard because it has lots of macro keys and great macro software. It's amazing how benficial macro keys are, even for simple macros, like copy paste or paste values, relieves strain of always using ctrl key combinations. I often forget which macros I have assigned especially on programs less frequently used so e-ink for macro keys would be a huge benfit for me.

camoby 10y ago

Didn't you just just acquired by Apple?

SonderDesign 10y ago
Our comms lead, Orli did issue a statement but we can't comment further on the Apple rumours. https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/ https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/

tarikjn 10y ago

Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable. The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly. I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.

SonderDesign 10y ago
I agree with your points on ergo design, we did a survey with the thousands on community members and only like 4% would buy an ergo design which was lower than expected. It's important for us to address from a design perspective but we want to do incremental keyboard revision, otherwise consumers won't be able to adapt to the massive transition in a dynamic and ergo design.
- brudgers 10y ago
  The Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 might make a good reference design. With all those programmers, they've got a pretty good dog fooding process for keyboard ergonomics. And the 4000's are very modestly priced...another good reason to have one as reference.
- tarikjn 10y ago
  Yes, I think it makes 100% sense that you guys focus on a mobile keyboard for the step 1. And I think you guys made a very good start at it by using Apple design as a reference, using a reversible connection, and adding backlighting. From an ergonomics standpoint, Apple's keyboard is actually fairly good for a straight keyboard. When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).

jacobolus 10y ago

Neither the Model M nor the AEK II is a “pinnacle” of anything. The best keyboards were made earlier, in the 1970s. By the mid-1980s when the Model M debuted, or the early–mid 1990s of the AEK II, keyboards were already started along their downward cost-and-quality-cutting slide, albeit not yet to the final rubber dome ditch of the late 1990s through 2000s. If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990). Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound. Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder. Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.

SonderDesign 10y ago
Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.
SonderDesign 10y ago
Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

When I say I'd pay a silly price, I wasn't thinking quite Art Lebedev silly! They discontinued the nicer one (Maximus). Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys. One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic. ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)

SonderDesign 10y ago
We basically redesigned the mechanism from the ground up; I can't comment on it specifically since it's all IP sensitive but a different approach whilst preserving the same tactile feel.

garyclarke27 10y ago

I've been wanting a keyboard like this for years, well done I hope you make a success of it. I use a steelseries keyboard because it has lots of macro keys and great macro software. It's amazing how benficial macro keys are, even for simple macros, like copy paste or paste values, relieves strain of always using ctrl key combinations. I often forget which macros I have assigned especially on programs less frequently used so e-ink for macro keys would be a huge benfit for me.