4 ms·

Among the arguments I have seen is that Roman numerals made arithmetic very hard. Switch to Indo-Arabic numerals and arithmetic becomes conveniently algorithmic

by has2k1 10y ago

Among the arguments I have seen is that Roman numerals made arithmetic very hard. Switch to Indo-Arabic numerals and arithmetic becomes conveniently algorithmic. And wherever this number system was adopted, intellectual pursuit involving numbers increased. Then the pursuit and related thought developed in these endeavours becomes one of the ingredients for an industrial revolution.

tzs 10y ago
So then the question is why didn't it happen in the Arab world? The 12th century Arabic world certain had very smart inventors/engineers/builders. See, for example Ismail al-Jazari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_al-Jazari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_al-Jazari
- partycoder 10y ago
  Because the Islamic golden age ended when their cities were razed by the mongols to the ground. The mongols offered them to annex them peacefully, if they agreed to pay tributes and taxes, as well as put their armies to their service, but they refused and the mongol response was incredibly violent. This resulted in a massive setback from which they could not recover for some significant time. Their cultural legacy however survived temporarily in Islamic Spain (Al-Andalus), which was later lost to europeans in the Spanish Reconquista. The knowledge collected by the Islamic civilization was assimilated by europeans through the Toledo School of Translators, which translated all arabic/greek/hebrew/etc... into latin, and then disseminated to the early Universities and scholar centres such as Oxford. During the crusades, anything arabic was destroyed/burned and the latin versions remained. This would be the real origin of the Reinassance, which is not a popular historic view due to the revisionism fueled by the crusades.
  - partycoder 10y ago
    I can see this now being downvoted. Sadly, we still have some medieval revisionists also in 2016! Please take some time to read more on the subject rather than to just say "this never happened" just because you don't like it (i.e: revisionism). What I posted was a way to challenge the western view of "we figured it all out ourselves", where in reality, we borrowed inspiration from many cultures and then erased the ones we didn't like from history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th... Crediting the right people for their achievements is fundamental for being a real meritocracy. A racist theocentric revisionist view of the world is not a meritocracy.
    - alphonsegaston 10y ago
      Yeah, it's crazy that this was downvoted. I learned about the Toledo School in an undergrad Western Civ course. This hasn't been controversial for decades: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators
  - wtbob 10y ago
    > Because the Islamic golden age ended when their cities were razed by the mongols to the ground. That was certainly part of it, but it was also because they managed to burn through the cultural & intellectual capital they had captured from Persia, Byzantium & North Africa. They Islamic Golden Age was much the same as the golden year one might experience if one stopped saving and burnt through all of one's savings in 12 months. I don't know what Crusade-fuelled revisionism you might be referring to; I think that in the Middle Ages folks gave credit to the Dar al-Islam for the classical learning it captured from Persia, Byzantium & North Africa.
    - partycoder 10y ago
      The mongols destroyed the grand library of Baghdad after the siege of Baghdad led by Halagu Khan, then looted all libraries and killed a large number of scholars, and important infrastructure such as canals used for irrigation. Is not that they destroyed themselves. Then, they did have scientific and cultural achievements of their own and this is reflected in their buildings that you can now visit in Spain.
      - dredmorbius 10y ago
        While what you're saying is largely true, the way you're stating it isn't particularly charitable. Address the facts, let the personalities and biases take care of themselves.
        partycoder 10y ago
        > Address the facts, let the personalities and biases take care of themselves. Sounds reasonable. But you are addressing my personality and bias now.
        dredmorbius 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by has2k1 10y ago

tzs 10y ago

So then the question is why didn't it happen in the Arab world? The 12th century Arabic world certain had very smart inventors/engineers/builders. See, for example Ismail al-Jazari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_al-Jazari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_al-Jazari

partycoder 10y ago
Because the Islamic golden age ended when their cities were razed by the mongols to the ground. The mongols offered them to annex them peacefully, if they agreed to pay tributes and taxes, as well as put their armies to their service, but they refused and the mongol response was incredibly violent. This resulted in a massive setback from which they could not recover for some significant time. Their cultural legacy however survived temporarily in Islamic Spain (Al-Andalus), which was later lost to europeans in the Spanish Reconquista. The knowledge collected by the Islamic civilization was assimilated by europeans through the Toledo School of Translators, which translated all arabic/greek/hebrew/etc... into latin, and then disseminated to the early Universities and scholar centres such as Oxford. During the crusades, anything arabic was destroyed/burned and the latin versions remained. This would be the real origin of the Reinassance, which is not a popular historic view due to the revisionism fueled by the crusades.
- partycoder 10y ago
  I can see this now being downvoted. Sadly, we still have some medieval revisionists also in 2016! Please take some time to read more on the subject rather than to just say "this never happened" just because you don't like it (i.e: revisionism). What I posted was a way to challenge the western view of "we figured it all out ourselves", where in reality, we borrowed inspiration from many cultures and then erased the ones we didn't like from history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th... Crediting the right people for their achievements is fundamental for being a real meritocracy. A racist theocentric revisionist view of the world is not a meritocracy.
  - alphonsegaston 10y ago
    Yeah, it's crazy that this was downvoted. I learned about the Toledo School in an undergrad Western Civ course. This hasn't been controversial for decades: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators
- wtbob 10y ago
  > Because the Islamic golden age ended when their cities were razed by the mongols to the ground. That was certainly part of it, but it was also because they managed to burn through the cultural & intellectual capital they had captured from Persia, Byzantium & North Africa. They Islamic Golden Age was much the same as the golden year one might experience if one stopped saving and burnt through all of one's savings in 12 months. I don't know what Crusade-fuelled revisionism you might be referring to; I think that in the Middle Ages folks gave credit to the Dar al-Islam for the classical learning it captured from Persia, Byzantium & North Africa.
  - partycoder 10y ago
    The mongols destroyed the grand library of Baghdad after the siege of Baghdad led by Halagu Khan, then looted all libraries and killed a large number of scholars, and important infrastructure such as canals used for irrigation. Is not that they destroyed themselves. Then, they did have scientific and cultural achievements of their own and this is reflected in their buildings that you can now visit in Spain.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      While what you're saying is largely true, the way you're stating it isn't particularly charitable. Address the facts, let the personalities and biases take care of themselves.
      - partycoder 10y ago
        > Address the facts, let the personalities and biases take care of themselves. Sounds reasonable. But you are addressing my personality and bias now.
        dredmorbius 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html