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This article ignores decades of scholarship about the roots of the industrial revolution and capitalism. The short answer is that the Europeans (maybe for some

by maceo 10y ago

This article ignores decades of scholarship about the roots of the industrial revolution and capitalism. The short answer is that the Europeans (maybe for some of the reasons given in this article), were greedier than the Chinese. It's likely that the Chinese empire reached the New World before Columbus. http://www.economist.com/node/5381851 http://www.economist.com/node/5381851. But the thought of enslaving an entire population and stealing all their natural resources didn't even occur to the Chinese explorers. Whereas the Chinese expeditions were financed by the empire, the Europeans expeditions were financed by debt, so the men needed to arrive on land and quickly acquire wealth for themselves at all costs, or else they would return to Europe broke or never return at all. And this led them to commit the horrendous acts in the New World we know so much about. Western Europe, now full of gold and silver stolen from the New World had levels of wealth it had never experienced. This led to increased demands for certain goods (like English wool), which forced the population off of the land and into urban centers, thus creating the landless working class. This process was called The Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure. An urban, landless working class, was a necessary condition for the industrial revolution. The extraordinary wealth ready to be invested in industry, a product of colonialism and the slave trade, was another necessary condition for the industrial revolution.

Spooky23 10y ago
That's an equally inadequate summary of some revisionist takeaways. Fundamentally, the Chinese were in a box. Japan was in isolation, and surrounding countries were no threat to the kingdom. China's problems were all internal, which made looking beyond their boundaries for solutions counterproductive.
briholt 10y ago
This comment reflects a worrying trend I keep seeing, which I'll summarize as: the answer to all history is that Europeans are evil. Whatever the question or the circumstance or the evidence, we have to contort them to confirm our pre-determined narrative that Europeans are evil. This, of course, is nonsense. The Chinese were equally as greedy as everyone else at the time. The idea that China didn't capitalize on its expeditions (to any location) for humanitarian reasons is patently absurd and easily disproven. It begs the obvious question - why did they finance expeditions if not for greed? Were the Chinese the pre-TV model for Star Trek - boldly exploring the seas for the benefit of all mankind? Get real. See Lim Hong[1], the 16th century Chinese pirate who ruthlessly slaughtered half of Southeast Asia. This comment reflects a highly selective and ethnically targeted historical ignorance and misattribution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Hong_(pirate) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Hong_(pirate)
- bgilroy26 10y ago
  It's hard to study the 30 years war in such a way as to conclude that the movers and shakers of Europe were all angels
  - jwhitlark 10y ago
    I believe his point is that Europeans don't occupy a unique point on the moral spectrum, either positive or negative.
  - briholt 10y ago
    They certainly weren't angels, but neither were the Chinese or Arabs or Africans or Aztecs or any other large group of humans at the time. Though maybe we can grant exceptions to small, isolated groups.
- dcgudeman 10y ago
  I totally agree with your observation regarding this trend to find Europeans/Americans evil for doing what nearly every other civilization has done and continues to do. I also think the best solution to this trend is to just answer this comments with opposing arguments with evidence just as you have done. And to do my part I will leave this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
  - maceo 10y ago
    Don't be so sensitive that any hint of criticism as taken as a condemnation of your culture. I don't see how "opposing arguments" add anything to the conversation. I know very well that the reconquista was just finishing when Columbus set sail and that Spain had been dominated by an Islamic caliphate for centuries. I don't think that excuses his atrocities.
- maceo 10y ago
  I neither wrote not implied that Europeans are evil -- you assumed that. The fact is that colonialism and the slave trade, despite creating massive amounts of wealth for some, were horrific for its subjects. And Western Europeans were the first to scale both colonialism and the slave trade globally. This isn't debatable, it's plain fact. Unfortunately, people like the interviewee explain away early western economic domination by referring to Western European intellect and culture, and ignoring the dark side. This has been the case since the beginning of economic history. Adam Smith didn't even bother to discuss slavery in The Wealth of Nations even though he knew how critical it was to the development of capitalism. It's time to be honest about how we got here. If the ugly truth offends you, I don't know what to tell you.
WalterBright 10y ago
This doesn't explain at all why industrialization happened in the US and not in South America. The answer is free markets. The industrial revolution happened in free market countries. BTW, gold and silver extracted from the New World doesn't explain it. 1. Gold and silver are not economic wealth - Spain (the main recipient of it) experienced inflation. 2. Spain did not become the dominant power in Europe, though it should have if exploiting the New World was the key. 3. The IR happpened in the US starting around 1800. The US was not extracting gold/silver from elsewhere, had no empire, had no banking system to speak of, was a nation of subsistence farmers, had no great cities, etc.
- nhaehnle 10y ago
  Maybe the answer isn't so much free market as a lack of alternatives. Note that the US did not industrialize equally - notably, consider the part where slavery-based agriculture was profitable, and the resulting civil war. In a similar vein, I was quite surprised to learn how industrial early 19th century Peru was, until they decided to screw development and just exploit the land. (Though I think the internal comparison of different parts of the US is more relevant, since they operated under the same political and economic frameworks, yet developed quite differently. Maybe a relatively free market is a necessary condition for industrial revolution, but it sure as hell isn't sufficient.)
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > Note that the US did not industrialize equally - notably, consider the part where slavery-based agriculture was profitable That's an astute observation. The slave based southern economy did not industrialize. Slavery is not a free market. I do not know of a free market economy that failed to industrialize. As for slavery being profitable, one of the big drivers of the Civil War was it was becoming unprofitable, and the South needed to protect its inefficient economy. Separating itself from the North meant it could enact protectionist trade barriers (which were not allowed by the Constitution). Like so many things in human history, the end of slavery came about less because of a moral awakening, and more because it didn't pay anymore.
cnlevy 10y ago
Spain from the 15th century onwards is a counter-example to your theory. Because they had accumulated so much wealth from plundering the New World, they became lazy and dependent for goods on poorer, and more industious nations, (the English for example). On the other hand, the English, which didn't have all that wealth were forced to produce real-value; Around the 17th century, they overcame Spain to become a dominant power in Europe; The role of colonialism was secondary in the wealth production of modern European nations.
- maceo 10y ago
  "the English, which didn't have all that wealth" What? The British mastered the slave trade and its Caribbean slave colonies were perhaps the most productive of the era.
- pipio21 10y ago
  More industrious nations? In what, in pillage, piracy? slave trade? Spain not only exploited South America, but also administered it and gave it a lot of wealth and education to those places. In fact, some places in South America went sour after independence because it was much better administered before. In places like Argentina, genocide to the native population happened after independence, not before. Once and again people project England situation today to the past, but you have to look at the England of the past, that was certainly not more industrious. Industry in England is copied and improved from the Netherlands from a political plan like the Meiji period in Japan. Before that it was a very poor country and certainly not harder working than the rest.

by maceo 10y ago

Spooky23 10y ago

That's an equally inadequate summary of some revisionist takeaways. Fundamentally, the Chinese were in a box. Japan was in isolation, and surrounding countries were no threat to the kingdom. China's problems were all internal, which made looking beyond their boundaries for solutions counterproductive.

briholt 10y ago

This comment reflects a worrying trend I keep seeing, which I'll summarize as: the answer to all history is that Europeans are evil. Whatever the question or the circumstance or the evidence, we have to contort them to confirm our pre-determined narrative that Europeans are evil. This, of course, is nonsense. The Chinese were equally as greedy as everyone else at the time. The idea that China didn't capitalize on its expeditions (to any location) for humanitarian reasons is patently absurd and easily disproven. It begs the obvious question - why did they finance expeditions if not for greed? Were the Chinese the pre-TV model for Star Trek - boldly exploring the seas for the benefit of all mankind? Get real. See Lim Hong[1], the 16th century Chinese pirate who ruthlessly slaughtered half of Southeast Asia. This comment reflects a highly selective and ethnically targeted historical ignorance and misattribution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Hong_(pirate) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Hong_(pirate)

bgilroy26 10y ago
It's hard to study the 30 years war in such a way as to conclude that the movers and shakers of Europe were all angels
- jwhitlark 10y ago
  I believe his point is that Europeans don't occupy a unique point on the moral spectrum, either positive or negative.
- briholt 10y ago
  They certainly weren't angels, but neither were the Chinese or Arabs or Africans or Aztecs or any other large group of humans at the time. Though maybe we can grant exceptions to small, isolated groups.
dcgudeman 10y ago
I totally agree with your observation regarding this trend to find Europeans/Americans evil for doing what nearly every other civilization has done and continues to do. I also think the best solution to this trend is to just answer this comments with opposing arguments with evidence just as you have done. And to do my part I will leave this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
- maceo 10y ago
  Don't be so sensitive that any hint of criticism as taken as a condemnation of your culture. I don't see how "opposing arguments" add anything to the conversation. I know very well that the reconquista was just finishing when Columbus set sail and that Spain had been dominated by an Islamic caliphate for centuries. I don't think that excuses his atrocities.
maceo 10y ago
I neither wrote not implied that Europeans are evil -- you assumed that. The fact is that colonialism and the slave trade, despite creating massive amounts of wealth for some, were horrific for its subjects. And Western Europeans were the first to scale both colonialism and the slave trade globally. This isn't debatable, it's plain fact. Unfortunately, people like the interviewee explain away early western economic domination by referring to Western European intellect and culture, and ignoring the dark side. This has been the case since the beginning of economic history. Adam Smith didn't even bother to discuss slavery in The Wealth of Nations even though he knew how critical it was to the development of capitalism. It's time to be honest about how we got here. If the ugly truth offends you, I don't know what to tell you.

WalterBright 10y ago

This doesn't explain at all why industrialization happened in the US and not in South America. The answer is free markets. The industrial revolution happened in free market countries. BTW, gold and silver extracted from the New World doesn't explain it. 1. Gold and silver are not economic wealth - Spain (the main recipient of it) experienced inflation. 2. Spain did not become the dominant power in Europe, though it should have if exploiting the New World was the key. 3. The IR happpened in the US starting around 1800. The US was not extracting gold/silver from elsewhere, had no empire, had no banking system to speak of, was a nation of subsistence farmers, had no great cities, etc.

nhaehnle 10y ago
Maybe the answer isn't so much free market as a lack of alternatives. Note that the US did not industrialize equally - notably, consider the part where slavery-based agriculture was profitable, and the resulting civil war. In a similar vein, I was quite surprised to learn how industrial early 19th century Peru was, until they decided to screw development and just exploit the land. (Though I think the internal comparison of different parts of the US is more relevant, since they operated under the same political and economic frameworks, yet developed quite differently. Maybe a relatively free market is a necessary condition for industrial revolution, but it sure as hell isn't sufficient.)
- WalterBright 10y ago
  > Note that the US did not industrialize equally - notably, consider the part where slavery-based agriculture was profitable That's an astute observation. The slave based southern economy did not industrialize. Slavery is not a free market. I do not know of a free market economy that failed to industrialize. As for slavery being profitable, one of the big drivers of the Civil War was it was becoming unprofitable, and the South needed to protect its inefficient economy. Separating itself from the North meant it could enact protectionist trade barriers (which were not allowed by the Constitution). Like so many things in human history, the end of slavery came about less because of a moral awakening, and more because it didn't pay anymore.

cnlevy 10y ago

Spain from the 15th century onwards is a counter-example to your theory. Because they had accumulated so much wealth from plundering the New World, they became lazy and dependent for goods on poorer, and more industious nations, (the English for example). On the other hand, the English, which didn't have all that wealth were forced to produce real-value; Around the 17th century, they overcame Spain to become a dominant power in Europe; The role of colonialism was secondary in the wealth production of modern European nations.

maceo 10y ago
"the English, which didn't have all that wealth" What? The British mastered the slave trade and its Caribbean slave colonies were perhaps the most productive of the era.
pipio21 10y ago
More industrious nations? In what, in pillage, piracy? slave trade? Spain not only exploited South America, but also administered it and gave it a lot of wealth and education to those places. In fact, some places in South America went sour after independence because it was much better administered before. In places like Argentina, genocide to the native population happened after independence, not before. Once and again people project England situation today to the past, but you have to look at the England of the past, that was certainly not more industrious. Industry in England is copied and improved from the Netherlands from a political plan like the Meiji period in Japan. Before that it was a very poor country and certainly not harder working than the rest.