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I've been a gevent user for a long time and Python's decision to "bless" twisted by adopting it's patterns was a watershed moment for me, and basically was the

I've been a gevent user for a long time and Python's decision to "bless" twisted by adopting it's patterns was a watershed moment for me, and basically was the beginning of the end of my belief that I'd ever adopt Python 3. User jerf's comment that asyncio "more than [doubles] the complexity" is absolutely correct. Watch this video of Guido talking about tulip...or struggling to talk about tulip, rather. It's clear the dude is out of his depth and my god the recent changes to the language show that the inmates are now running the asylum... Seems like Python, in it's effort to chase the latest fads, is no longer the language I would endorse to someone new to programming. Whether you think that's a meaningful litmus test or not, the staggering amount of crap that's infiltrated the language now completely flies in the face of the zen of python's statement that there should be one and preferably only one way of doing things. Fuck. I'm going to go code some lua now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1coLC-MUCJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1coLC-MUCJc

mangeletti 10y ago
Hey Charles, I had the pleasure of working over IRC with you (at Ellington) when I worked for CMG Digital, and I found you to be one of the most knowledgeable Python developers I had met. But... I think you're blowing this out of proportion. I think that yes, the implementation details are far too complicated, and yes there has been some serious (IMHO) mistakes made (e.g., type hints, format strings, etc.) in Python 3, but overall the language is terrific and getting better.
hyperbovine 10y ago
Oh come on. Hyperbole much? You're acting as if it's impossible to write any sort of meaningful code in 3.x without embracing asyncio. A few 2to3-ish language changes excepted, you can punch the exact same code into the Python 3.x interpreter that you have been for the past 15 years.
- carapace 10y ago
  Not much. I agree with coleifer (and others) that Python 3 is losing "the zen". The new f-string stuff is a perfect example: a bad, retrogressive idea that never should have been approved. I have no plans to adopt or use Python 3.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    > The new f-string stuff is a perfect example: a bad, retrogressive idea that never should have been approved. A convenience that is present in every other modern (and not-so modern) language except python? Hardly.
  - rat87 10y ago
    Are you kidding? Interpolated strings are awesome. Only problem is that they weren't introduced in python 3.1 so you could drop the f
  - tedmiston 10y ago
    I have mixed feelings about f strings. Having the string literal bound to the variable name feels kind of backwards -- that one could break interpolated strings inadvertently by refactoring a variable name. On the other the str.format syntax is a bit verbose, even in shorthand notation. That said, I use Python 3 every day for almost everything without need to use every shiny new feature.
    - Too 10y ago
      It's Python we are talking about right? Refactoring a variable name in a non type safe language has always been prone to break something. If you trust your IDE to do refactoring on that level I would also trust it would rename inside the string.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
stock_toaster 10y ago
> I've been a gevent user for a long time and Python's > decision to "bless" twisted by adopting it's patterns > was a watershed moment for me, and basically was the > beginning of the end of my belief that I'd ever adopt > Python 3. This was exactly my experience as well. I had used twisted for quite a while, and never really liked it (aside: my god was inlineCallbacks a great improvement though!). Then later I started using gevent, and used it very successfully for a few years. So much more of a pleasant experience to use. I still do quite a bit of work with python2. These days I am using Go in quite a few of my personal projects, and for work projects where I am given the choice.
ubernostrum 10y ago
On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the track record of success of Twisted's approach to async programming in Python. It was at the point where enough people were clamoring for something to be blessed that it makes sense to pick the one whose approaches and patterns are as stable and battle-tested as Twisted's.

mangeletti 10y ago

Hey Charles, I had the pleasure of working over IRC with you (at Ellington) when I worked for CMG Digital, and I found you to be one of the most knowledgeable Python developers I had met. But... I think you're blowing this out of proportion. I think that yes, the implementation details are far too complicated, and yes there has been some serious (IMHO) mistakes made (e.g., type hints, format strings, etc.) in Python 3, but overall the language is terrific and getting better.

hyperbovine 10y ago

Oh come on. Hyperbole much? You're acting as if it's impossible to write any sort of meaningful code in 3.x without embracing asyncio. A few 2to3-ish language changes excepted, you can punch the exact same code into the Python 3.x interpreter that you have been for the past 15 years.

carapace 10y ago
Not much. I agree with coleifer (and others) that Python 3 is losing "the zen". The new f-string stuff is a perfect example: a bad, retrogressive idea that never should have been approved. I have no plans to adopt or use Python 3.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  > The new f-string stuff is a perfect example: a bad, retrogressive idea that never should have been approved. A convenience that is present in every other modern (and not-so modern) language except python? Hardly.
- rat87 10y ago
  Are you kidding? Interpolated strings are awesome. Only problem is that they weren't introduced in python 3.1 so you could drop the f
- tedmiston 10y ago
  I have mixed feelings about f strings. Having the string literal bound to the variable name feels kind of backwards -- that one could break interpolated strings inadvertently by refactoring a variable name. On the other the str.format syntax is a bit verbose, even in shorthand notation. That said, I use Python 3 every day for almost everything without need to use every shiny new feature.
  - Too 10y ago
    It's Python we are talking about right? Refactoring a variable name in a non type safe language has always been prone to break something. If you trust your IDE to do refactoring on that level I would also trust it would rename inside the string.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

stock_toaster 10y ago

> I've been a gevent user for a long time and Python's > decision to "bless" twisted by adopting it's patterns > was a watershed moment for me, and basically was the > beginning of the end of my belief that I'd ever adopt > Python 3. This was exactly my experience as well. I had used twisted for quite a while, and never really liked it (aside: my god was inlineCallbacks a great improvement though!). Then later I started using gevent, and used it very successfully for a few years. So much more of a pleasant experience to use. I still do quite a bit of work with python2. These days I am using Go in quite a few of my personal projects, and for work projects where I am given the choice.

ubernostrum 10y ago

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the track record of success of Twisted's approach to async programming in Python. It was at the point where enough people were clamoring for something to be blessed that it makes sense to pick the one whose approaches and patterns are as stable and battle-tested as Twisted's.