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So that is why the English game was 'known for long balls'. I wonder if Arsenal ( which used to play possession football some time back ) was successful in Eng

So that is why the English game was 'known for long balls'. I wonder if Arsenal ( which used to play possession football some time back ) was successful in England on account of this. Also, teams like Barcelona which play the game with long periods of possession and are extremely successful.

at-fates-hands 10y ago
That was from the 1950's when Charles Reep (an RAF officer) figured out that most goals were scored with three or less passes. His idea was to play the long balls from the back over the defense, and let the forwards run on to those balls and have a scoring opportunity.
- ibmthrowaway218 10y ago
  Um, yes, that's exactly what this article is about.
toyg 10y ago
Arsenal still play possession football. They have not won anything for a while, to the point "playing like Arsenal" (i.e. hogging the ball without actually winning) has become a joke. Their early-'00s success was due as much to an exceptional generation of talents (Vieira, Bergkamp, Pires, Henry...) as to any other factor. The same for Barcelona - Pep Guardiola, known for being the most successful manager to insist on "possession first" football, was not particularly successful at Bayern (he inherited a team winning all domestic and international trophies in 2013, and only managed to win domestically for the following two years), and is somewhat struggling at Man City. Famously, Leicester City won the Premier League last year playing the exact opposite of possession football. Someone like Jamie Vardy, capable of quick bursts of speed but with relatively poor skills on the ball, would be embarrassing to watch at Arsenal or Barcelona, but was absolutely lethal for the Foxes last year. Possession football, like "moneyball" baseball, looks nice on paper but IMHO is a red herring. Technically gifted players will like to hold the ball, and gifted players naturally tend to win more because they are better, so people link this and that and say you have to hold the ball to win. What you really need to be successful is to play a style that suits your players. If you have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, you play possession; if you have Vardy, Mahrez and Kante, you play counter-attack and long balls in space.
- josephcooney 10y ago
  > They have not won anything for a while Back to back FA Cups in 2013-14 and 2014-15? I think the rest of your analysis is pretty valid however.
  - toyg 10y ago
    Eh, I tend to forget the FA Cup and the FL Cup - after all, major clubs will happily sack managers who can "just" win one of those in a season (like Van Gaal last year)...
- mig39 10y ago
  Good counter-attacking football is very effective against teams that play possession football. That includes Barcelona. Teams that have beaten Barcelona often just let them have the ball, then wait for them to make a mistake. And teams that are set up for long periods of possession have a hard time quickly switching to defence.
askew 10y ago
Arsenal's successes at the turn of the decade were based around a more counter-attacking style than they've employed since the stadium move. Looks like this season they have taken a leaf out of Leicester's book and gone for the pacy trident of Iwobi, Sanchez and Walcott to launch counters with.
sgt101 10y ago
I think that the real reason is the weather, until the advent of the premier league and the huge cash injection that came with it pitches deteriorated to mud patches by november. Passing balls around in the pouring rain on mud with zero drainage is a mugs game. Two things; ok there appears to have been an obvious fallacy in the reasoning, but the data was gathered at the wrong time - the game was changing, TV was becoming fundamental to it, chopper Harris was disappearing and strange things like fitness were becoming important. Secondly and most importantly, the analysis revealed something that was quite widely believed already. Ok it was wrong, but it was believed, and immediately evidence of the success of the strategy was assembled. I see this all the time; confirm someones ideas with data and you will be loved. It's rare that you will be found out, and even when you are it might be 20 years before it happens.

at-fates-hands 10y ago

That was from the 1950's when Charles Reep (an RAF officer) figured out that most goals were scored with three or less passes. His idea was to play the long balls from the back over the defense, and let the forwards run on to those balls and have a scoring opportunity.

ibmthrowaway218 10y ago
Um, yes, that's exactly what this article is about.

toyg 10y ago

Arsenal still play possession football. They have not won anything for a while, to the point "playing like Arsenal" (i.e. hogging the ball without actually winning) has become a joke. Their early-'00s success was due as much to an exceptional generation of talents (Vieira, Bergkamp, Pires, Henry...) as to any other factor. The same for Barcelona - Pep Guardiola, known for being the most successful manager to insist on "possession first" football, was not particularly successful at Bayern (he inherited a team winning all domestic and international trophies in 2013, and only managed to win domestically for the following two years), and is somewhat struggling at Man City. Famously, Leicester City won the Premier League last year playing the exact opposite of possession football. Someone like Jamie Vardy, capable of quick bursts of speed but with relatively poor skills on the ball, would be embarrassing to watch at Arsenal or Barcelona, but was absolutely lethal for the Foxes last year. Possession football, like "moneyball" baseball, looks nice on paper but IMHO is a red herring. Technically gifted players will like to hold the ball, and gifted players naturally tend to win more because they are better, so people link this and that and say you have to hold the ball to win. What you really need to be successful is to play a style that suits your players. If you have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, you play possession; if you have Vardy, Mahrez and Kante, you play counter-attack and long balls in space.

josephcooney 10y ago
> They have not won anything for a while Back to back FA Cups in 2013-14 and 2014-15? I think the rest of your analysis is pretty valid however.
- toyg 10y ago
  Eh, I tend to forget the FA Cup and the FL Cup - after all, major clubs will happily sack managers who can "just" win one of those in a season (like Van Gaal last year)...
mig39 10y ago
Good counter-attacking football is very effective against teams that play possession football. That includes Barcelona. Teams that have beaten Barcelona often just let them have the ball, then wait for them to make a mistake. And teams that are set up for long periods of possession have a hard time quickly switching to defence.

askew 10y ago

Arsenal's successes at the turn of the decade were based around a more counter-attacking style than they've employed since the stadium move. Looks like this season they have taken a leaf out of Leicester's book and gone for the pacy trident of Iwobi, Sanchez and Walcott to launch counters with.

sgt101 10y ago

I think that the real reason is the weather, until the advent of the premier league and the huge cash injection that came with it pitches deteriorated to mud patches by november. Passing balls around in the pouring rain on mud with zero drainage is a mugs game. Two things; ok there appears to have been an obvious fallacy in the reasoning, but the data was gathered at the wrong time - the game was changing, TV was becoming fundamental to it, chopper Harris was disappearing and strange things like fitness were becoming important. Secondly and most importantly, the analysis revealed something that was quite widely believed already. Ok it was wrong, but it was believed, and immediately evidence of the success of the strategy was assembled. I see this all the time; confirm someones ideas with data and you will be loved. It's rare that you will be found out, and even when you are it might be 20 years before it happens.