13 ms·

An interesting idea, but I just don't look at my keyboards. Even so, I can't help feeling this is a much better approach than replacing F-keys with the Mac Touc

An interesting idea, but I just don't look at my keyboards. Even so, I can't help feeling this is a much better approach than replacing F-keys with the Mac Touchbar. The touchbar could have been a great idea if above the pre-existing keys. However, if it was a Model M chassis, sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys, E-Ink, and a modern selection of media keys and volume I'd probably buy one. Regardless of how silly the cost. Then I'd still not look at it until doing something in Photoshop or some other program I use only rarely! Edit: It also strikes me as odd not to E-Ink the Command and Option keys so you can use it on Windows too.

monk_e_boy 10y ago
I think it'd be cool for programming, I have RSI and find using the shift key + another key painful. I also rarely use the number keys above the letters (I used num pad) so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat. And rearranging some of other keys would be great. And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?
- jacobolus 10y ago
  Have you considered trying a keyboard with more thumb keys, and using a thumb for shift? (Or if you’re stuck on a standard keyboard, I recommend you try to use the opposite-hand shift key.)
- chris_st 10y ago
  You might consider either Autohotkey for Windows, or Keyboard Maestro for Macs (or something similar for Linux, I'm sure). You can rebind keys, including shift and control/command, to whatever or wherever you want. I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.
- iheartmemcache 10y ago
  Firstly: RSI is no joke - if you're experiencing pain, there's a non-zero chance it'll develop into a serious medical condition. (At MIT's Media Lab, someone's RSI got so bad he couldn't type at all and had to invent an interface using vocal phonemes to encode common OS actions/lexical keywords to control his OS (OS X) / editor (emacs) / language of choice (python)). If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy). If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.) ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).
  - dylanz 10y ago
    Great post and an important disclaimer... take RSI seriously. I went the Kinesis route and switched to Dvorak (after taking a week off from typing) and I've never had a problem since (I ditched the Kinesis after a couple months and went back to my laptops keyboard).
  - rjeli 10y ago
    If your pinky issue comes back, try Xah Lee's ctrl-palming method[0]. It's even less strain than Caps Lock IMO. [0]: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html
  - kentt 10y ago
    Echoing the parent, take it very seriously. One thing that helped me was an verticle mouse (Evoluent C in my case). There's on one thing that will solve you're problems, just bit a pieces that will contribute to long term management. One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.
    - simplexion 10y ago
      The vertical mouse thing being "ergonomic" is nonsense. There are studies that have shown this. From memory it was generally worse for you to use a vertical mouse in terms of productivity and comfort. The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.
      - kentt 10y ago
        Perhaps you might appreciate a different perspective. Broadly speaking, ergonomic devices are meant to combat repetitive strain injuries. I think of ergo devices as useful if they give you more variation. They might not be better positions in themselves, but switching between palms down and palms sideways when moving from the keyboard to mouse gives you variation that helps to combat RSI. At the very least, I couldn't put my palm down without pain for a while, so a sideways mouse is better at least from that vantage point.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) and got rather sensitive to where my wrists rest on a laptop I can sympathise! I switched to a vertical mouse earlier in the year which has helped massively. My right wrist was always the most affected, and it turns out it was mostly down to mousing. Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!
  - Hemospectrum 10y ago
    > Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.
- chx 10y ago
  May I recommend switching to vertical keyboard and mouse? Here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 you can see my solution made from tripod parts and the Matias Ergo Pro which is a) mechanical b) split c) uses tripod screws. For vertical mice, the Evoluent VerticalMouse is fantastic and you can get previous generation (which are just as fine) used on eBay for $25-30.
- dimatter 10y ago
  http://voicecode.io http://voicecode.io
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  For your RSI check out keyboardio, it's a nice clean ergo design with a mech.
- bartvk 10y ago
  > so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat An appropriate typo, because with this keyboard you can probably map the happy-poo emoji to your shit_key.
mmanfrin 10y ago
The 'cloud connected' stuff is an obnoxious gimmick, but Das's upcoming 5q is pretty close to what you're looking for: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard-5q-the-cloud-connected-keyboard https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard...
- gcb0 10y ago
  they got a interesting full sized keyboard (that has dying appeal) and added the most obnoxious software 'features' they could think of. Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. And i really wanted to like them.
  - breischl 10y ago
    >>Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. I don't think that's fair. I've had a Das for a couple years now (Model S Pro, IIRC) and it's a solid, well designed keyboard. No obnoxious software AFAICT. The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.
- djhworld 10y ago
  I have a Das Keyboard, it's a really nice product, mechanical switches etc. I don't see a use case for this though, I rarely look at my keyboard.
  - the_duke 10y ago
    And why is that? Because usually there's absolutely no reason to do so, because it's static and you you have the layout in muscle memory.
    - grogenaut 10y ago
      - because the density of information on the screen is higher and the screen is much larger. - Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck. - Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input. - BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD. The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here. Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better. This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.
gcb0 10y ago
You are not the target audience. i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them. Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.
- branchless 10y ago
  Yeah I could use this for French, even though the keys probably feel horrible.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Oh I see that. Even then I see cases I'd find it useful - software I don't use daily, learning something like vi, games etc. Enough that I'd buy a mechanical if they ever made one. I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.
RachelF 10y ago
Odd that it is based on the standard Mac keyboard. If you're going to build a premium keyboard, then why not add mechanical keys, full size arrow keys and PgUp PgDn?
- spc476 10y ago
  Given some of the comments in another recent thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398) your coworkers just might kill you for using a loud keyboard (but given the construction of an IBM Model M, you will probably be able to defend yourself with it).
  - bitwize 10y ago
    Been carrying an MX blue keyboard from workplace to workplace. Not a peep of complaint from a coworker yet.
    - nsxwolf 10y ago
      They must not be complainers. They probably hate you in secret.
      - jrockway 10y ago
        Agree. Model M / Cherry blues are too loud for any shared space. Even Topre switches are probably kind of annoying, but it's a lower-pitched sound so not as noticeable.
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Because it's a prototype, we went for existing displays and a 60% was the closest. Besides, you for your a 104 key keyboard and the price just doubled. Can't PgUP be remapped, it's a dynamic keyboard.
joeldg 10y ago
or this https://medium.com/@joeldg/the-collective-ugh-over-the-apple-touch-bar-i-have-a-better-approach-31c1b196ae22#.v8dvhnoyi https://medium.com/@joeldg/the-collective-ugh-over-the-apple...
SonderDesign 10y ago
Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as reference designs in the office; they're probably the pinnacle of good keyboard design and construction however the product you're asking for (a mech switch display keyboard) already exists and it costs $1500. The reality is, that approach is not optimised for mass production and we would price out most of our market (like Apple is doing now). Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers. P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.
- camoby 10y ago
  Didn't you just just acquired by Apple?
  - SonderDesign 10y ago
    Our comms lead, Orli did issue a statement but we can't comment further on the Apple rumours. https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/ https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/
- tarikjn 10y ago
  Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable. The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly. I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.
bduerst 10y ago
>However, if it was a Model M chassis Yeah, I was thinking the same thing while reviewing this. An e-ink cherryMX switch keyboard, with a backlight and numpad, would be an instant buy from me (even in the hundreds of dollars range).
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Me too :D Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).
rayiner 10y ago
> sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  I've had a lot of keyboards over my 35 years of computing. I stuck with Thinkpads for years because they had scissor keys that compared with a desktop, had decent travel and a distinct click. Desktop's included Microsoft Natural, standard OEM, through midrange to Roccat with cherry browns, and a Razer with blues. None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot. I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > But are they actually better? I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M. On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro). With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance. When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps. But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  There is a satisfying sound to punching out code or emails on a mech switch. You stop noticing the sound but that said some colleagues who love mechs hate working with others who have them.
jjcm 10y ago
I've always thought that adaptive key display keyboards were a really strange market. You need the intersection of (enthusiasts who will pay ~$300+ for a keyboard) with (users who don't touch type). It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.
Friedduck 10y ago
^This. Had Apple gone this direction instead of the OLED bar I'd be placing an order.

monk_e_boy 10y ago

I think it'd be cool for programming, I have RSI and find using the shift key + another key painful. I also rarely use the number keys above the letters (I used num pad) so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat. And rearranging some of other keys would be great. And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?

jacobolus 10y ago
Have you considered trying a keyboard with more thumb keys, and using a thumb for shift? (Or if you’re stuck on a standard keyboard, I recommend you try to use the opposite-hand shift key.)
chris_st 10y ago
You might consider either Autohotkey for Windows, or Keyboard Maestro for Macs (or something similar for Linux, I'm sure). You can rebind keys, including shift and control/command, to whatever or wherever you want. I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.
iheartmemcache 10y ago
Firstly: RSI is no joke - if you're experiencing pain, there's a non-zero chance it'll develop into a serious medical condition. (At MIT's Media Lab, someone's RSI got so bad he couldn't type at all and had to invent an interface using vocal phonemes to encode common OS actions/lexical keywords to control his OS (OS X) / editor (emacs) / language of choice (python)). If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy). If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.) ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).
- dylanz 10y ago
  Great post and an important disclaimer... take RSI seriously. I went the Kinesis route and switched to Dvorak (after taking a week off from typing) and I've never had a problem since (I ditched the Kinesis after a couple months and went back to my laptops keyboard).
- rjeli 10y ago
  If your pinky issue comes back, try Xah Lee's ctrl-palming method[0]. It's even less strain than Caps Lock IMO. [0]: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html
- kentt 10y ago
  Echoing the parent, take it very seriously. One thing that helped me was an verticle mouse (Evoluent C in my case). There's on one thing that will solve you're problems, just bit a pieces that will contribute to long term management. One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.
  - simplexion 10y ago
    The vertical mouse thing being "ergonomic" is nonsense. There are studies that have shown this. From memory it was generally worse for you to use a vertical mouse in terms of productivity and comfort. The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.
    - kentt 10y ago
      Perhaps you might appreciate a different perspective. Broadly speaking, ergonomic devices are meant to combat repetitive strain injuries. I think of ergo devices as useful if they give you more variation. They might not be better positions in themselves, but switching between palms down and palms sideways when moving from the keyboard to mouse gives you variation that helps to combat RSI. At the very least, I couldn't put my palm down without pain for a while, so a sideways mouse is better at least from that vantage point.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) and got rather sensitive to where my wrists rest on a laptop I can sympathise! I switched to a vertical mouse earlier in the year which has helped massively. My right wrist was always the most affected, and it turns out it was mostly down to mousing. Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!
- Hemospectrum 10y ago
  > Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.
chx 10y ago
May I recommend switching to vertical keyboard and mouse? Here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 you can see my solution made from tripod parts and the Matias Ergo Pro which is a) mechanical b) split c) uses tripod screws. For vertical mice, the Evoluent VerticalMouse is fantastic and you can get previous generation (which are just as fine) used on eBay for $25-30.
dimatter 10y ago
http://voicecode.io http://voicecode.io
SonderDesign 10y ago
For your RSI check out keyboardio, it's a nice clean ergo design with a mech.
bartvk 10y ago
> so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat An appropriate typo, because with this keyboard you can probably map the happy-poo emoji to your shit_key.

mmanfrin 10y ago

The 'cloud connected' stuff is an obnoxious gimmick, but Das's upcoming 5q is pretty close to what you're looking for: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard-5q-the-cloud-connected-keyboard https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard...

gcb0 10y ago
they got a interesting full sized keyboard (that has dying appeal) and added the most obnoxious software 'features' they could think of. Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. And i really wanted to like them.
- breischl 10y ago
  >>Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. I don't think that's fair. I've had a Das for a couple years now (Model S Pro, IIRC) and it's a solid, well designed keyboard. No obnoxious software AFAICT. The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.
djhworld 10y ago
I have a Das Keyboard, it's a really nice product, mechanical switches etc. I don't see a use case for this though, I rarely look at my keyboard.
- the_duke 10y ago
  And why is that? Because usually there's absolutely no reason to do so, because it's static and you you have the layout in muscle memory.
  - grogenaut 10y ago
    - because the density of information on the screen is higher and the screen is much larger. - Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck. - Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input. - BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD. The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here. Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better. This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.

gcb0 10y ago

You are not the target audience. i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them. Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.

branchless 10y ago
Yeah I could use this for French, even though the keys probably feel horrible.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Oh I see that. Even then I see cases I'd find it useful - software I don't use daily, learning something like vi, games etc. Enough that I'd buy a mechanical if they ever made one. I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.

RachelF 10y ago

Odd that it is based on the standard Mac keyboard. If you're going to build a premium keyboard, then why not add mechanical keys, full size arrow keys and PgUp PgDn?

spc476 10y ago
Given some of the comments in another recent thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398) your coworkers just might kill you for using a loud keyboard (but given the construction of an IBM Model M, you will probably be able to defend yourself with it).
- bitwize 10y ago
  Been carrying an MX blue keyboard from workplace to workplace. Not a peep of complaint from a coworker yet.
  - nsxwolf 10y ago
    They must not be complainers. They probably hate you in secret.
    - jrockway 10y ago
      Agree. Model M / Cherry blues are too loud for any shared space. Even Topre switches are probably kind of annoying, but it's a lower-pitched sound so not as noticeable.
SonderDesign 10y ago
Because it's a prototype, we went for existing displays and a 60% was the closest. Besides, you for your a 104 key keyboard and the price just doubled. Can't PgUP be remapped, it's a dynamic keyboard.

joeldg 10y ago

or this https://medium.com/@joeldg/the-collective-ugh-over-the-apple-touch-bar-i-have-a-better-approach-31c1b196ae22#.v8dvhnoyi https://medium.com/@joeldg/the-collective-ugh-over-the-apple...

SonderDesign 10y ago

Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as reference designs in the office; they're probably the pinnacle of good keyboard design and construction however the product you're asking for (a mech switch display keyboard) already exists and it costs $1500. The reality is, that approach is not optimised for mass production and we would price out most of our market (like Apple is doing now). Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers. P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.

camoby 10y ago
Didn't you just just acquired by Apple?
- SonderDesign 10y ago
  Our comms lead, Orli did issue a statement but we can't comment further on the Apple rumours. https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/ https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/
tarikjn 10y ago
Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable. The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly. I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.

bduerst 10y ago

>However, if it was a Model M chassis Yeah, I was thinking the same thing while reviewing this. An e-ink cherryMX switch keyboard, with a backlight and numpad, would be an instant buy from me (even in the hundreds of dollars range).

SonderDesign 10y ago
Me too :D Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).

rayiner 10y ago

> sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.

anexprogrammer 10y ago
I've had a lot of keyboards over my 35 years of computing. I stuck with Thinkpads for years because they had scissor keys that compared with a desktop, had decent travel and a distinct click. Desktop's included Microsoft Natural, standard OEM, through midrange to Roccat with cherry browns, and a Razer with blues. None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot. I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.
rdtsc 10y ago
> But are they actually better? I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M. On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro). With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance. When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps. But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)
SonderDesign 10y ago
There is a satisfying sound to punching out code or emails on a mech switch. You stop noticing the sound but that said some colleagues who love mechs hate working with others who have them.

jjcm 10y ago

I've always thought that adaptive key display keyboards were a really strange market. You need the intersection of (enthusiasts who will pay ~$300+ for a keyboard) with (users who don't touch type). It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.

Friedduck 10y ago

^This. Had Apple gone this direction instead of the OLED bar I'd be placing an order.