11 ms·

Sun, surf and low rents: why Lisbon could be the next tech capital

55 points by smcl 10y ago

AncoraImparo 10y ago
Not going to happen.
- adamors 10y ago
  Why?
  - paol 10y ago
    Not the OP, but I do live here: because you can't have a concentration of startups without a concentration of venture capital, and that has yet to materialize. Nor do I see a particular reason why it should materialize.
wfeui3 10y ago
It is all sunny, until you try to register a company.
- k__ 10y ago
  How come? It's in the EU, so you can register your company where you prefer. Ireland for example.
  - cagataygurturk 10y ago
    Burocracy in south Europe is not similar to anywhere in the developed world.
  - SunShiranui 10y ago
    You most likely have to pay taxes in the country you're living in\working from, however.
drcross 10y ago
I've heard Portugal could be favourable for personal income tax if you are a remote worker, can anyone comment on that? If i'm thinking about "semi" retiring I'd like somewhere with cheap tax, sun and good hospitals.
- mxuribe 10y ago
  Agreed!!! I'd also even be fine if - along with the sun and good hospitals - the taxes were at least reasonable, added in with good infrastructure (besides just hospitals) that benefited from taxes, which as a resident I would directly benefit from!
- ldarcyftw 10y ago
  Apparently there is a 10-year 0-tax on non-Portugal income. Road to residency is quite straightforward (for non-EU citizens) (not sure about citizenship though). On the other hand, bureaucracy is quite bad I've heard.
  - me_bx 10y ago
    Information related the taxation regime for "non-habitual residents": http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-regime-for-non-habitual-residents/ http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-re... Apparently, the 0% tax only applies in case the income is already taxed in the state of origin...
    - ethbro 10y ago
      For Americans, isn't all our income always still taxed in the US?
      - ryuker16 10y ago
        Under 90k earned abroad? Zero tax
      - mark212 10y ago
        Always subject to taxation by the US. There's a fairly high initial exemption for money earned abroad while living abroad. The only exception is Puerto Rico
rubenfonseca 10y ago
Nope
ThePawnBreak 10y ago
There's an article like this written about 90% of Europe's capitals. There are no tech hubs in cheap places, because smart people move away from low wage, low cost of life places. Libon stands no chance, I would say the only contenders are London, Stockholm, Berlin and maybe 2-3 others. The only low-ish cost country I could see becoming a serious contester for a tech hub would be Poland.
- mxuribe 10y ago
  But you have to admit, there's an obvious need/desire for there to be other/more tech hubs. As cool as it might be for some to have a single tech hub, that kills affordability, hence distributing the hubs to numerous spots around the world. Let's face it: if you happen to be a tech employable person, wouldn't it be cool if you COULD spend a few years in tech hub A, then be able to move to tech hub B, etc.? Instead of really only having one (or too few) options? I think so anyway.
  - ThePawnBreak 10y ago
    I think tech hubs are intrinsically centralized, because you need to get the best people in the sample place. If you have N tech hubs, then you have no tech hubs. If Europe is to have a real tech hub, it needs to have the best minds in Europe (at the very least) be there. And for now, there is not really any such place. Language is also a big issue.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      There is such a place. That's called London and the language is English. Source: Me and the dozens of tech people I meet every days who have left their countries to come here.
  - sulam 10y ago
    hub: the effective center of an activity, region, or network. You'll need a new word to describe this thing you're looking for. ;) There's a reason why hubs exist, and it's nothing to do with there being many of them to choose from.
krona 10y ago
For anyone employing/being employed in Portugal: I've read that that the statutory maximum working day is 8 hours. What does that actually mean in practice?
- k__ 10y ago
  I don't know Portugal, but in Germany it's 8h too. (40h a week) (8h work) + (0.5h to 1h lunch break) ~= 9h at the office.
  - Inufu 10y ago
    In my experience (Austria and UK), lunch break is part of the 8h, i.e. I get to work at 10:00 and leave at 18:00.
    - k__ 10y ago
      http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2680.jpg http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2...
- paol 10y ago
  Not much, i.e. there's no no enforcement of the law in practice. Having said that it's not that difficult to find jobs where the 8h day is generally followed, and work/life balance in general is not bad. Edit: to clarify a question that appears in other comments, those 8h do not include the lunch break, which is 1h.
- pmcpinto 10y ago
  It depends of the company, in a lot of places is really 8 hours but there are also some companies that you work 10h/day or more. Especially in the consulting area. Sometimes is just to show off, and people spend the time at their office doing a lot of things that are not work related.
- xadoc 10y ago
  It means nothing. Had a permanent position in a big Portuguese company and everyone in the whole team was working 12 hours plus per day. Is uncommon to have people in Portugal working less than 40 hours. Tried to find a study to put some numbers in context of the reality I know. In the link Under "Duration of work" you can see that 78.6% of people work either 40 hours or more. http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/comparative-information/national-contributions/portugal/working-time-in-the-european-union-portugal http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/compara...
plinkplonk 10y ago
I suspect what makes a 'tech capital' is the presence of VC money. For better or worse, SF absolutely dominates here, and till we have comparable amounts of money in another location, there won't be comparable 'tech capitals'. I doubt low rent is a marker of a tech capital anywhere. (I could be wrong). It might make sense to register a company in the USA, raise money from US VC then work from wherever you have access to your customers and you like living. India has a few companies that do exactly this. US registered companies, a global clientele, tech work happens in India, mostly in Bangalore. E.g: Helpshift.
- k__ 10y ago
  Sure thing. But I think SF is more of a US thing. I have the feeling that Europe is searching for its own tech captial right now. London was the best candidate, but (probably) got nuked by the Brexit. I'd think it could be Berlin, it is rather cheap and still got much creative people. Don't know if they will gentrify it away the next years.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Brexit doesn't matter. The brains are already here. The companies are already here. The language is English. There is no other place in Europe who can compete with that.
    - piva00 10y ago
      London is far from being THE tech capital of Europe. Nowhere here has consolidated itself as a huge tech hub yet, London is good, just as Berlin is pretty good for tech jobs right now. I'm currently living and working in Stockholm and I can say that the culture around tech here is pretty damn good, although smaller than Berlin or London we get some very good people around here, paired with Swedish efficiency. Hell, even Amsterdam has a good tech scene. I hope that London doesn't suffer a huge backlash from Brexit but... It's not a consolidated tech hub and I really don't know about startup culture around there.
jostmey 10y ago
In my opinion, tech hubs need: * Open minded culture * Top research facilities (i.e. Multiple top universities) * Low cost of living, high quality of life * Large customer markets Just because Libson has a low cost of living doesn't mean it will take off. The cost of living is low in lots of South American Cities. Does that mean they will all be the next San Fran?
- ThePawnBreak 10y ago
  Care to name a few tech hubs that have a low cost of living?
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    Austin, Texas in the U.S.? While the cost in dollars may be cheap, I would definitely consider there to be steep non-monetary costs to living there.
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      I don't think Austin is considered cheap except compared to new York and SF
kybernetyk 10y ago
And a lot of bureaucracy and a complex tax system. If I wanted to start a business in Europe I'd chose the UK. They are light (for Europe) on regulation and have very simple rules when it comes to running a business according to law. Hell, you can set up your Ltd. in 10 minutes and pay the fees via PayPal. Try that anywhere in Continental Europe. (That's also why I don't get all the hype about Berlin. I'm from Germany and Germany is one of the last places where I would start up).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tendersej 10y ago
  Estonia also offers all the advantages that you mention. Not to add that "brexit" could complicate a few things.
- lifty 10y ago
  Estonia, while a little obscure, has great facilities for interacting with the government, and a very straightforward tax code. They have one of the most modern governments in Europe, with which you can interact fully digitally by using a digital id (smartcard). Also, check out their latest campaign for attracting business and talent, called e-Estonia. While they have plenty to learn, they are on the right track.
xadoc 10y ago
Lisbon is definitely a nice place to live, but not so much to work. Otherwise why the significant emigration rate of tech workers/skilled workers? Pay is low and the hours are long. VC money in Portugal is very limited and bureaucracy is still more than what you would expect comparing to the UK. Most entrepreneurship programs are state sponsored and usually there is some big international company involved, from incubation these companies become state dependent.
- mping 10y ago
  The pay is low if you compare to London, even so I had colleagues in Lisbon earning more (before taxes) than devs in London. If you don't earn enough here to live comfortably, either you dont have the skills (yet?) or have no idea of the market you're in. Of course, if your plan is to earn money, in Europe London is the place to be.
pmcpinto 10y ago
Lisbon is an awesome place to live, the weather is awesome (today we have 27C and it's almost November), the food and nightlife is great and somewhat cheap compared with other european cities, but it's far away from becoming a tech capital. It's really a nice place, especially for people who are working remotely and receiving a kind of salary that are paid in UK, US, Australia, etc
virmundi 10y ago
Yea, and Palatka Florida is in the running. It's close to the ocean, 45 mins from St Augustine. It's dead center between Jacksonville, Gainesville and St Augustine. It's dirt cheap with my 130 year old house at 2000 sqft only being 145k. And I'm here. You need more than low cost housing, friendly government and eco-amenities to make a new tech hub.
mping 10y ago
Actually I would very much prefer that Lisbon would become the next tech creative scene than the next Sillicon Valley. Besides lots of money for some people, I don't see any particular advantages of being loaded with VC money. I don't buy into the trickle down argument, from what I read over this side of the pond only the IT people are happy in SF.

55 points by smcl 10y ago

AncoraImparo 10y ago

Not going to happen.

adamors 10y ago
Why?
- paol 10y ago
  Not the OP, but I do live here: because you can't have a concentration of startups without a concentration of venture capital, and that has yet to materialize. Nor do I see a particular reason why it should materialize.

wfeui3 10y ago

It is all sunny, until you try to register a company.

k__ 10y ago
How come? It's in the EU, so you can register your company where you prefer. Ireland for example.
- cagataygurturk 10y ago
  Burocracy in south Europe is not similar to anywhere in the developed world.
- SunShiranui 10y ago
  You most likely have to pay taxes in the country you're living in\working from, however.

drcross 10y ago

I've heard Portugal could be favourable for personal income tax if you are a remote worker, can anyone comment on that? If i'm thinking about "semi" retiring I'd like somewhere with cheap tax, sun and good hospitals.

mxuribe 10y ago
Agreed!!! I'd also even be fine if - along with the sun and good hospitals - the taxes were at least reasonable, added in with good infrastructure (besides just hospitals) that benefited from taxes, which as a resident I would directly benefit from!
ldarcyftw 10y ago
Apparently there is a 10-year 0-tax on non-Portugal income. Road to residency is quite straightforward (for non-EU citizens) (not sure about citizenship though). On the other hand, bureaucracy is quite bad I've heard.
- me_bx 10y ago
  Information related the taxation regime for "non-habitual residents": http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-regime-for-non-habitual-residents/ http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-re... Apparently, the 0% tax only applies in case the income is already taxed in the state of origin...
  - ethbro 10y ago
    For Americans, isn't all our income always still taxed in the US?
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      Under 90k earned abroad? Zero tax
    - mark212 10y ago
      Always subject to taxation by the US. There's a fairly high initial exemption for money earned abroad while living abroad. The only exception is Puerto Rico

rubenfonseca 10y ago

Nope

ThePawnBreak 10y ago

There's an article like this written about 90% of Europe's capitals. There are no tech hubs in cheap places, because smart people move away from low wage, low cost of life places. Libon stands no chance, I would say the only contenders are London, Stockholm, Berlin and maybe 2-3 others. The only low-ish cost country I could see becoming a serious contester for a tech hub would be Poland.

mxuribe 10y ago
But you have to admit, there's an obvious need/desire for there to be other/more tech hubs. As cool as it might be for some to have a single tech hub, that kills affordability, hence distributing the hubs to numerous spots around the world. Let's face it: if you happen to be a tech employable person, wouldn't it be cool if you COULD spend a few years in tech hub A, then be able to move to tech hub B, etc.? Instead of really only having one (or too few) options? I think so anyway.
- ThePawnBreak 10y ago
  I think tech hubs are intrinsically centralized, because you need to get the best people in the sample place. If you have N tech hubs, then you have no tech hubs. If Europe is to have a real tech hub, it needs to have the best minds in Europe (at the very least) be there. And for now, there is not really any such place. Language is also a big issue.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    There is such a place. That's called London and the language is English. Source: Me and the dozens of tech people I meet every days who have left their countries to come here.
- sulam 10y ago
  hub: the effective center of an activity, region, or network. You'll need a new word to describe this thing you're looking for. ;) There's a reason why hubs exist, and it's nothing to do with there being many of them to choose from.

krona 10y ago

For anyone employing/being employed in Portugal: I've read that that the statutory maximum working day is 8 hours. What does that actually mean in practice?

k__ 10y ago
I don't know Portugal, but in Germany it's 8h too. (40h a week) (8h work) + (0.5h to 1h lunch break) ~= 9h at the office.
- Inufu 10y ago
  In my experience (Austria and UK), lunch break is part of the 8h, i.e. I get to work at 10:00 and leave at 18:00.
  - k__ 10y ago
    http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2680.jpg http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2...
paol 10y ago
Not much, i.e. there's no no enforcement of the law in practice. Having said that it's not that difficult to find jobs where the 8h day is generally followed, and work/life balance in general is not bad. Edit: to clarify a question that appears in other comments, those 8h do not include the lunch break, which is 1h.
pmcpinto 10y ago
It depends of the company, in a lot of places is really 8 hours but there are also some companies that you work 10h/day or more. Especially in the consulting area. Sometimes is just to show off, and people spend the time at their office doing a lot of things that are not work related.
xadoc 10y ago
It means nothing. Had a permanent position in a big Portuguese company and everyone in the whole team was working 12 hours plus per day. Is uncommon to have people in Portugal working less than 40 hours. Tried to find a study to put some numbers in context of the reality I know. In the link Under "Duration of work" you can see that 78.6% of people work either 40 hours or more. http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/comparative-information/national-contributions/portugal/working-time-in-the-european-union-portugal http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/compara...

plinkplonk 10y ago

I suspect what makes a 'tech capital' is the presence of VC money. For better or worse, SF absolutely dominates here, and till we have comparable amounts of money in another location, there won't be comparable 'tech capitals'. I doubt low rent is a marker of a tech capital anywhere. (I could be wrong). It might make sense to register a company in the USA, raise money from US VC then work from wherever you have access to your customers and you like living. India has a few companies that do exactly this. US registered companies, a global clientele, tech work happens in India, mostly in Bangalore. E.g: Helpshift.

k__ 10y ago
Sure thing. But I think SF is more of a US thing. I have the feeling that Europe is searching for its own tech captial right now. London was the best candidate, but (probably) got nuked by the Brexit. I'd think it could be Berlin, it is rather cheap and still got much creative people. Don't know if they will gentrify it away the next years.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Brexit doesn't matter. The brains are already here. The companies are already here. The language is English. There is no other place in Europe who can compete with that.
  - piva00 10y ago
    London is far from being THE tech capital of Europe. Nowhere here has consolidated itself as a huge tech hub yet, London is good, just as Berlin is pretty good for tech jobs right now. I'm currently living and working in Stockholm and I can say that the culture around tech here is pretty damn good, although smaller than Berlin or London we get some very good people around here, paired with Swedish efficiency. Hell, even Amsterdam has a good tech scene. I hope that London doesn't suffer a huge backlash from Brexit but... It's not a consolidated tech hub and I really don't know about startup culture around there.

jostmey 10y ago

In my opinion, tech hubs need: * Open minded culture * Top research facilities (i.e. Multiple top universities) * Low cost of living, high quality of life * Large customer markets Just because Libson has a low cost of living doesn't mean it will take off. The cost of living is low in lots of South American Cities. Does that mean they will all be the next San Fran?

ThePawnBreak 10y ago
Care to name a few tech hubs that have a low cost of living?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  Austin, Texas in the U.S.? While the cost in dollars may be cheap, I would definitely consider there to be steep non-monetary costs to living there.
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    I don't think Austin is considered cheap except compared to new York and SF

kybernetyk 10y ago

And a lot of bureaucracy and a complex tax system. If I wanted to start a business in Europe I'd chose the UK. They are light (for Europe) on regulation and have very simple rules when it comes to running a business according to law. Hell, you can set up your Ltd. in 10 minutes and pay the fees via PayPal. Try that anywhere in Continental Europe. (That's also why I don't get all the hype about Berlin. I'm from Germany and Germany is one of the last places where I would start up).

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tendersej 10y ago
Estonia also offers all the advantages that you mention. Not to add that "brexit" could complicate a few things.
lifty 10y ago
Estonia, while a little obscure, has great facilities for interacting with the government, and a very straightforward tax code. They have one of the most modern governments in Europe, with which you can interact fully digitally by using a digital id (smartcard). Also, check out their latest campaign for attracting business and talent, called e-Estonia. While they have plenty to learn, they are on the right track.

xadoc 10y ago

Lisbon is definitely a nice place to live, but not so much to work. Otherwise why the significant emigration rate of tech workers/skilled workers? Pay is low and the hours are long. VC money in Portugal is very limited and bureaucracy is still more than what you would expect comparing to the UK. Most entrepreneurship programs are state sponsored and usually there is some big international company involved, from incubation these companies become state dependent.

mping 10y ago
The pay is low if you compare to London, even so I had colleagues in Lisbon earning more (before taxes) than devs in London. If you don't earn enough here to live comfortably, either you dont have the skills (yet?) or have no idea of the market you're in. Of course, if your plan is to earn money, in Europe London is the place to be.

pmcpinto 10y ago

Lisbon is an awesome place to live, the weather is awesome (today we have 27C and it's almost November), the food and nightlife is great and somewhat cheap compared with other european cities, but it's far away from becoming a tech capital. It's really a nice place, especially for people who are working remotely and receiving a kind of salary that are paid in UK, US, Australia, etc

virmundi 10y ago

Yea, and Palatka Florida is in the running. It's close to the ocean, 45 mins from St Augustine. It's dead center between Jacksonville, Gainesville and St Augustine. It's dirt cheap with my 130 year old house at 2000 sqft only being 145k. And I'm here. You need more than low cost housing, friendly government and eco-amenities to make a new tech hub.

mping 10y ago

Actually I would very much prefer that Lisbon would become the next tech creative scene than the next Sillicon Valley. Besides lots of money for some people, I don't see any particular advantages of being loaded with VC money. I don't buy into the trickle down argument, from what I read over this side of the pond only the IT people are happy in SF.