> the derivative works aren't really relevant Um... why not? If I am the end user of a work derived from some GPL code, then having the freedom to see/modify a

> the derivative works aren't really relevant Um... why not? If I am the end user of a work derived from some GPL code, then having the freedom to see/modify and re-distribute that code is valuable to me. From the very start of this thread I have been talking about protecting the freedom of the end user. Perhaps an example can help? But first, let me give an example of what I mean by "End User". I do not mean a programmer who "uses" GPL'd code by making changes to that code to make a derived work to redistribute. I mean someone who uses a piece of software to perform a task. e.g. Using LibreOffice to type up a document. Now for an example of a derivative work where GPL adds freedom for the end user, but takes it away from the publisher: I use Ubuntu on my desktop as an End User. Ubuntu is a derived from Debian, which is derived from GNU/Linux, a GPL licensed work. Because Debian and Ubuntu are derived from GNU/Linux, they must also be licensed under the GPL. As an End User of Ubuntu, I have the freedom to examine/modify Ubuntu's source code. The Ubuntu Team has to let me do it because of the GPL. If GNU/Linux was licensed under MIT, Ubuntu could be published as a closed source, proprietary software. I could still use Ubuntu, but I would not be free to look at the source code, modify it or redistribute it. True, with Ubuntu licensed as GPL, I am not free to package up my own closed source variant of Ubuntu, but neither would I have the freedom to do so if Ubuntu was closed source. > That's not what "mutually exclusive" means. "Mutually exclusive" means that you can either be an end user or a publisher - never both I concede that I have used that term incorrectly. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking this, but I suspect most people would have been able to glean what I was attempting to convey, but perhaps my use of english is too clumsy for me to communicate what I wish to convey. > By restricting one's freedom as a "publisher" (as you say), you're inherently restricting one's freedom as an "end user". What I am saying, and have been from the start of this thread, is that GPL is designed to put some freedoms above other freedoms. It's like the saying "Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins". Unlimited freedom cannot exist for everybody, under all conditions. GPL puts more importance on the freedom to operate/examine/tinker than to publish. The fact that an individual can have both their freedom increased and decreased at the same time does seem paradoxical, but when you realise different freedoms can be in conflict with each other, it does make sense. Ok, I think I've probably written enough. I do understand what you are saying. The GPL takes away some freedoms. I hope that what I have written has convinced you that it grants you some freedoms at the same time. Cheers and have a great night!