7 ms·

I think people always are easily obsessed and get attached to things they touch. Those things becomes extensions of themselves. I am that way about my smart pho

by rdtsc 10y ago

I think people always are easily obsessed and get attached to things they touch. Those things becomes extensions of themselves. I am that way about my smart phone, keyboard and headphones. I could replace the monitor tomorrow without thinking twice about it. Get a new hard drive, new router, even a new a new laptop because I don't touch but use an external keyboard. But, as soon as my IBM Model M keyboard stopped working last month, it really bothered me (it was my fault for spilling coffee on it). So I got my backup Cherry MX Blue keyboard from Rosewill (also a nice mechanical keyboard for only $60 or so) and then proceeded to take apart my IBM keyboard in the evenings, to see how it works and fix it. I just got a new membrane for it and am doing what's called a "bolt mod" replace plastic rivets in it with bolts. It is completely irrational spending all this time on it, but it am really attached to that particular keyboard.

nitrogen 10y ago
I regret getting rid of two Model M's several years ago because I didn't know about the bolt mod. It's not irrational to spend a lot of time maintaining a tool that helps you make money. I'll hold on to my current M forever, if it'll last.
- hueving 10y ago
  It does cross into irrational territory though when you can make money with an equivalent tool.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    It's a matter of ergonomics, as well as aesthetic taste. Some keyboards allow some keyboardists to make more money than other keyboards. If you can type faster and enjoy typing more, you can make more money, and you're more likely to stick with the profession. If your keyboard makes you hate every moment of your day because of the way it feels or because it injures your hands or wrists, then you will likely make less money. Plus, our profession requires enough creativity to be compared (loosely) to art. An artist's tools need to feel a certain way to evoke the right state of mind for creative work.
    - kpil 10y ago
      A colleague snapped once at the recently delivered $5 keyboard attached to a really expensive workstation, and ripped out the cheap rattling keyboard with keys that twist and hooks into others, and smashed it into a pillar and then broke it in half. Keys where flying over the office. Silence. And then applause. I don't really understand why professional tools are allowed to be so absolutely horrible.
      - fnj 10y ago
        Destroying a keyboard is actually pretty hard - something like physically cracking a CD. I have accomplished it however. I am notorious for keyboard rage, and have hurt the heel of my right hand pretty badly on multiple occasions pounding mercilessly on keyboards. I'll say one thing about my Unicomp keyboard. I have beat it savagely while enraged at some other screw-up in the computer or OS. I have sent keys flying, but always I could find them and snap them back in easily. It is physically as strong as a brick outhouse. After many years I have succeeded in wearing away some of the corners of the lettering on the E, S, and A keys, but they are still readable, and it is still as tight mechanically as new.
        brokenmachine 10y ago
        My keyboards nowadays are so expensive and difficult to replace that I wouldn't ever dream of breaking them on purpose. My Ergodox took me countless hours to plan, more to assemble, then even more hours after that tweaking the firmware. It wasn't cheap either, but some of the best money I've ever spent regardless. The horrible hp membrane keyboards at work, however, I would love to nuke from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
    - jacobolus 10y ago
      Anyone willing to bold mod a Model M really owes it to him/herself to try a Model F.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        On that subject, is the modelfkeyboards project legit? It looks cool but they're like six months behind already.
  - ipsin 10y ago
    I don't even know what "irrational" means in this context. If I enjoy using the keyboard and think it improves my performance, even if I am mistaken, how is that irrational? Happiness is not a measure of efficiency.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - dom0 10y ago
      Don't you see, you always need to optimize yourself and everything around you using rational methods. If no rational methods are available, fall back to pseudorational methods. Easy.
perryh2 10y ago
Check out Unicomp keyboards: http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD
- Skunkleton 10y ago
  I am typing on one of those right now. I love mine, it is just like the model m, but it has a windows key and USB.
  - agret 10y ago
    Does it come with a PS2->USB adapter so you can connect it via a PS2 port? Better input handling than USB :)
    - petepete 10y ago
      You can buy PS/2 versions of most models directly.
    - cm3 10y ago
      In cases where there is no PCB with PS/2, do you know if the adapter when connected to PS/2 has the exact same behavior or are is it a lesser/compatibility mode without the full benefits? Anytime I sit at a machine where the USB chip happens to reset, I wish it would use PS/2. It's just not the same, and I'm not even using n-key-rollover.
    - wolrah 10y ago
      > Better input handling than USB :) A common misconception. The USB HID Keyboard Boot Protocol, aka the lowest-common-denominator mode, is very limited and is where this belief comes from. 6KRO + modifiers, limited refresh rate, etc. This mode is only required for compatibility with certain BIOSes and pre-USB operating systems, though some "gaming" keyboards start in this mode and only switch when they've been twiddled by their driver because a subset of those certain BIOSes won't even boot properly with a keyboard that goes beyond the boot protocol connected. When booted to a remotely modern OS that has a full featured HID Keyboard driver it can support NKRO, up to 1000Hz refresh rates, etc. and as far as I'm aware is able to match or beat PS/2 in all ways.
Freak_NL 10y ago
> It is completely irrational spending all this time on it, but it am really attached to that particular keyboard. Nostalgia and/or emotional attachment aside, I think you can actually rationalize repairing it: ① Knowledge and skills. Repairing stuff increases your understanding of the things you use on a daily basis. ② Emotional reward. Successfully repairing something is simply satisfying. ③ Environmentalism. You manage to keep one more product functioning instead of consigning it to a landfill. I am willing to bet that the time you sink into this project is mostly your down-time. If you weren't doing this, you might be watching Netflix, or playing a game, or reading a book — it is not lost time.
- wojt_eu 10y ago
  Just make sure to blog about it and you can file this time under "marketing". A touch of geekiness looks good on a résumé as long as it does not smell of elitism.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  You are right. It was fun with a good sense of accomplishment at the end. On point 1, I was thinking quite a bit about how they used to make and how quality and assembly was different back then. Saw how some materials aged better than others. There was a thin rubber sheet between the keys and the membrane, I would expect after 30 years it would have been falling apart, but it was in great shape.
noir_lord 10y ago
I used the Cherry MX blues for quite a while, the 3000's series are exceptional value for money. Sadly I had to switch to an Ergo 4000 at home and work due to postural issues and while it is a lovely keyboard and works well I miss the clicky-clack (even used https://github.com/skkeeper/linux-clicky https://github.com/skkeeper/linux-clicky for a while) :) I fully understand what you mean about getting attached to technology though, I feel like that about my franken-desktop and my old(ish) Vostro laptop which I nurse a long, it's dented, battered and scratched but it's mine.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Not irrational at all. I've gone through countless newer keyboards, both insanely expensive mechanical gaming and business, yet none feels as "right" as the M. I got it new for a pittance in the 90s. It may weigh almost as much as me, and look a little grubby, but it seems destined to remain in mint condition forever. If it had a few media keys it'd be perfect. Keyboards and trackpoints are why I stuck with Thinkpads for years, and despite owning several always hated Macbook keyboards and touchpads. It's also why I was deeply offended when Lenovo replaced the 7 row keyboard with the compromised 6. When I spent a lot of time on iMacs I had a mechanical that was similar to the old extended keyboard (though not as reliable). So no, as the main interface to a machine, having a good keyboard with adequate travel is hugely important, and not the least bit irrational.
agumonkey 10y ago
I do think the "self extension" is a deep human builtin. And it's a very high bandwidth path in us. Ignoring it is mostly waste.
nwah1 10y ago
Agree. I'm looking to spend a surprisingly large amount of money on doubleshot PBT keycaps, because I'm frustrated by the lack of durability that any other type has. Can't finds sets for much below $50, for what amounts to some plastic.

by rdtsc 10y ago

nitrogen 10y ago

I regret getting rid of two Model M's several years ago because I didn't know about the bolt mod. It's not irrational to spend a lot of time maintaining a tool that helps you make money. I'll hold on to my current M forever, if it'll last.

hueving 10y ago
It does cross into irrational territory though when you can make money with an equivalent tool.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  It's a matter of ergonomics, as well as aesthetic taste. Some keyboards allow some keyboardists to make more money than other keyboards. If you can type faster and enjoy typing more, you can make more money, and you're more likely to stick with the profession. If your keyboard makes you hate every moment of your day because of the way it feels or because it injures your hands or wrists, then you will likely make less money. Plus, our profession requires enough creativity to be compared (loosely) to art. An artist's tools need to feel a certain way to evoke the right state of mind for creative work.
  - kpil 10y ago
    A colleague snapped once at the recently delivered $5 keyboard attached to a really expensive workstation, and ripped out the cheap rattling keyboard with keys that twist and hooks into others, and smashed it into a pillar and then broke it in half. Keys where flying over the office. Silence. And then applause. I don't really understand why professional tools are allowed to be so absolutely horrible.
    - fnj 10y ago
      Destroying a keyboard is actually pretty hard - something like physically cracking a CD. I have accomplished it however. I am notorious for keyboard rage, and have hurt the heel of my right hand pretty badly on multiple occasions pounding mercilessly on keyboards. I'll say one thing about my Unicomp keyboard. I have beat it savagely while enraged at some other screw-up in the computer or OS. I have sent keys flying, but always I could find them and snap them back in easily. It is physically as strong as a brick outhouse. After many years I have succeeded in wearing away some of the corners of the lettering on the E, S, and A keys, but they are still readable, and it is still as tight mechanically as new.
      - brokenmachine 10y ago
        My keyboards nowadays are so expensive and difficult to replace that I wouldn't ever dream of breaking them on purpose. My Ergodox took me countless hours to plan, more to assemble, then even more hours after that tweaking the firmware. It wasn't cheap either, but some of the best money I've ever spent regardless. The horrible hp membrane keyboards at work, however, I would love to nuke from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
  - jacobolus 10y ago
    Anyone willing to bold mod a Model M really owes it to him/herself to try a Model F.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      On that subject, is the modelfkeyboards project legit? It looks cool but they're like six months behind already.
- ipsin 10y ago
  I don't even know what "irrational" means in this context. If I enjoy using the keyboard and think it improves my performance, even if I am mistaken, how is that irrational? Happiness is not a measure of efficiency.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dom0 10y ago
    Don't you see, you always need to optimize yourself and everything around you using rational methods. If no rational methods are available, fall back to pseudorational methods. Easy.

perryh2 10y ago

Check out Unicomp keyboards: http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

Skunkleton 10y ago
I am typing on one of those right now. I love mine, it is just like the model m, but it has a windows key and USB.
- agret 10y ago
  Does it come with a PS2->USB adapter so you can connect it via a PS2 port? Better input handling than USB :)
  - petepete 10y ago
    You can buy PS/2 versions of most models directly.
  - cm3 10y ago
    In cases where there is no PCB with PS/2, do you know if the adapter when connected to PS/2 has the exact same behavior or are is it a lesser/compatibility mode without the full benefits? Anytime I sit at a machine where the USB chip happens to reset, I wish it would use PS/2. It's just not the same, and I'm not even using n-key-rollover.
  - wolrah 10y ago
    > Better input handling than USB :) A common misconception. The USB HID Keyboard Boot Protocol, aka the lowest-common-denominator mode, is very limited and is where this belief comes from. 6KRO + modifiers, limited refresh rate, etc. This mode is only required for compatibility with certain BIOSes and pre-USB operating systems, though some "gaming" keyboards start in this mode and only switch when they've been twiddled by their driver because a subset of those certain BIOSes won't even boot properly with a keyboard that goes beyond the boot protocol connected. When booted to a remotely modern OS that has a full featured HID Keyboard driver it can support NKRO, up to 1000Hz refresh rates, etc. and as far as I'm aware is able to match or beat PS/2 in all ways.

Freak_NL 10y ago

> It is completely irrational spending all this time on it, but it am really attached to that particular keyboard. Nostalgia and/or emotional attachment aside, I think you can actually rationalize repairing it: ① Knowledge and skills. Repairing stuff increases your understanding of the things you use on a daily basis. ② Emotional reward. Successfully repairing something is simply satisfying. ③ Environmentalism. You manage to keep one more product functioning instead of consigning it to a landfill. I am willing to bet that the time you sink into this project is mostly your down-time. If you weren't doing this, you might be watching Netflix, or playing a game, or reading a book — it is not lost time.

wojt_eu 10y ago
Just make sure to blog about it and you can file this time under "marketing". A touch of geekiness looks good on a résumé as long as it does not smell of elitism.
rdtsc 10y ago
You are right. It was fun with a good sense of accomplishment at the end. On point 1, I was thinking quite a bit about how they used to make and how quality and assembly was different back then. Saw how some materials aged better than others. There was a thin rubber sheet between the keys and the membrane, I would expect after 30 years it would have been falling apart, but it was in great shape.

noir_lord 10y ago

I used the Cherry MX blues for quite a while, the 3000's series are exceptional value for money. Sadly I had to switch to an Ergo 4000 at home and work due to postural issues and while it is a lovely keyboard and works well I miss the clicky-clack (even used https://github.com/skkeeper/linux-clicky https://github.com/skkeeper/linux-clicky for a while) :) I fully understand what you mean about getting attached to technology though, I feel like that about my franken-desktop and my old(ish) Vostro laptop which I nurse a long, it's dented, battered and scratched but it's mine.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

Not irrational at all. I've gone through countless newer keyboards, both insanely expensive mechanical gaming and business, yet none feels as "right" as the M. I got it new for a pittance in the 90s. It may weigh almost as much as me, and look a little grubby, but it seems destined to remain in mint condition forever. If it had a few media keys it'd be perfect. Keyboards and trackpoints are why I stuck with Thinkpads for years, and despite owning several always hated Macbook keyboards and touchpads. It's also why I was deeply offended when Lenovo replaced the 7 row keyboard with the compromised 6. When I spent a lot of time on iMacs I had a mechanical that was similar to the old extended keyboard (though not as reliable). So no, as the main interface to a machine, having a good keyboard with adequate travel is hugely important, and not the least bit irrational.

agumonkey 10y ago

I do think the "self extension" is a deep human builtin. And it's a very high bandwidth path in us. Ignoring it is mostly waste.

nwah1 10y ago

Agree. I'm looking to spend a surprisingly large amount of money on doubleshot PBT keycaps, because I'm frustrated by the lack of durability that any other type has. Can't finds sets for much below $50, for what amounts to some plastic.