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I agree people seem to be either "the free market solves all problems" or "capitalism is slavery and must be destroyed" (but don't focus on an actual viable alt

I agree people seem to be either "the free market solves all problems" or "capitalism is slavery and must be destroyed" (but don't focus on an actual viable alternative). I'm chipping away on my own alternative which is a bit of a hybrid. Competition and inequality between individuals but not between groups within society. https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people is a good intro for IT people.

eevilspock 10y ago
I applaud the effort, and I wish more people focused on a first principles approach to fixing society as you do. But I strongly disagree with some of your claims, and stopped reading as a result: "Software people are in a great position to design a new system" What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would be poor at this. People, society and culture aren't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical. "We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc." With all due respect, are you kidding? That is very naive to say the least. To say more, it smacks of Silicon Valley arrogance and smugness, against which, as you may be aware, there is a rising distrust and backlash.
- BobTheCoder 10y ago
  > What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would not be so great at this, because society isn't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical. I think there are in general 3 areas of information that are useful when contributing to the development of a societal system. Those being: * Research (History / modern economic research) * The Cutting Edge (Technology / modern business, project and team management / open source model) * Domain Knowledge (Specific and detailed knowledge of a particular domain) Software people have 2 of the 3. Plus they can collaborate easily using the open source model. I think wikipedia is proof that great things can be done without requiring "experts" with a great collaboration model. I also think that a lot of economics is not relevant if you are going for a "no free enterprise" based system. > "We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc." > With all due respect, are you kidding? No one is perfect and we aren't free from bias. However, a big part of our jobs is choosing between options eg. technologies. We strive to diminish our egos and bias to make good choices. I think this attribute is very useful for the topic of societal systems which tends to be extremely polarizing (eg. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/).
witty_username 10y ago
Ignoring human envy and jealousy, what is wrong with inequality between groups?
- BobTheCoder 10y ago
  It isn't so much the inequality itself is bad, but rather having distinct groups that compete with each other. (Group inequality is an inevitable outcome of this but not the root issue). Group competition is bad simply because it is less efficient if your goal is for the maximum good for all people. Say you have a valley and two tribes in it. If they fight for control of the valley they are expending resources in that competition. If they merge into one tribe then all resources can be spent on the good of all people. https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/arguments/the-free-market-is-inefficient https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/arguments/the-free-... goes into these negatives in regards to capitalism. Of course then there is the argument of 'but you can't get everyone to work together in the one group!' but with modern technology I think this is a solvable problem.
  - crazy1van 10y ago
    > Group competition is bad simply because it is less efficient if your goal is for the maximum good for all people. Humans are lazy and self interested. They work hard when they need to and competition provides the need. That goes for individuals as well as groups. Would people try as hard to woo their future spouse if they were matched and promised to each other at birth? Why did my comcast service get faster and cheaper as soon as verizon entered my community? Competition is painful, but it motivates us to be better.
    - BobTheCoder 10y ago
      Indeed I agree competition is necessary. With the right system though competition between individuals is sufficient. Humans will try and get ahead to woo their spouse by whatever means are available. Having individuals compete for prestige and salary is enough to engage humans to strive for excellence. Group competition doesn't relate to this aspect though. In a one group system individuals incentivized by individual reward won't be lazy or they lose out so group competition is not necessary. For example, take a series of tribes in one area competing for resources. If all but one tribe die out due to disease, the individuals of that tribe won't suddenly become lazy. Why? Because they still need their personal acclaim to attract a mate and be successful. In a multi group system (capitalism) there is no incentive for groups to compete (as in increase consumer value at the expense of profit) without competition, so yes in this system group competition is necessary. However, this attribute is not true of all systems.

eevilspock 10y ago

I applaud the effort, and I wish more people focused on a first principles approach to fixing society as you do. But I strongly disagree with some of your claims, and stopped reading as a result: "Software people are in a great position to design a new system" What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would be poor at this. People, society and culture aren't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical. "We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc." With all due respect, are you kidding? That is very naive to say the least. To say more, it smacks of Silicon Valley arrogance and smugness, against which, as you may be aware, there is a rising distrust and backlash.

BobTheCoder 10y ago
> What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would not be so great at this, because society isn't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical. I think there are in general 3 areas of information that are useful when contributing to the development of a societal system. Those being: * Research (History / modern economic research) * The Cutting Edge (Technology / modern business, project and team management / open source model) * Domain Knowledge (Specific and detailed knowledge of a particular domain) Software people have 2 of the 3. Plus they can collaborate easily using the open source model. I think wikipedia is proof that great things can be done without requiring "experts" with a great collaboration model. I also think that a lot of economics is not relevant if you are going for a "no free enterprise" based system. > "We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc." > With all due respect, are you kidding? No one is perfect and we aren't free from bias. However, a big part of our jobs is choosing between options eg. technologies. We strive to diminish our egos and bias to make good choices. I think this attribute is very useful for the topic of societal systems which tends to be extremely polarizing (eg. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/).

witty_username 10y ago

Ignoring human envy and jealousy, what is wrong with inequality between groups?

BobTheCoder 10y ago
It isn't so much the inequality itself is bad, but rather having distinct groups that compete with each other. (Group inequality is an inevitable outcome of this but not the root issue). Group competition is bad simply because it is less efficient if your goal is for the maximum good for all people. Say you have a valley and two tribes in it. If they fight for control of the valley they are expending resources in that competition. If they merge into one tribe then all resources can be spent on the good of all people. https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/arguments/the-free-market-is-inefficient https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/arguments/the-free-... goes into these negatives in regards to capitalism. Of course then there is the argument of 'but you can't get everyone to work together in the one group!' but with modern technology I think this is a solvable problem.
- crazy1van 10y ago
  > Group competition is bad simply because it is less efficient if your goal is for the maximum good for all people. Humans are lazy and self interested. They work hard when they need to and competition provides the need. That goes for individuals as well as groups. Would people try as hard to woo their future spouse if they were matched and promised to each other at birth? Why did my comcast service get faster and cheaper as soon as verizon entered my community? Competition is painful, but it motivates us to be better.
  - BobTheCoder 10y ago
    Indeed I agree competition is necessary. With the right system though competition between individuals is sufficient. Humans will try and get ahead to woo their spouse by whatever means are available. Having individuals compete for prestige and salary is enough to engage humans to strive for excellence. Group competition doesn't relate to this aspect though. In a one group system individuals incentivized by individual reward won't be lazy or they lose out so group competition is not necessary. For example, take a series of tribes in one area competing for resources. If all but one tribe die out due to disease, the individuals of that tribe won't suddenly become lazy. Why? Because they still need their personal acclaim to attract a mate and be successful. In a multi group system (capitalism) there is no incentive for groups to compete (as in increase consumer value at the expense of profit) without competition, so yes in this system group competition is necessary. However, this attribute is not true of all systems.