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All you're saying is that attempts at communism have all had major problems. That's true, but it's not enough to be conclusive. If you want to pick examples th

All you're saying is that attempts at communism have all had major problems. That's true, but it's not enough to be conclusive. If you want to pick examples that point various ways, you can note that Cuba has corruption, lack of democracy, is an impoverished island suffering the effects of significant economic embargoes in the global system and yet still vies for having one of the best health care systems. They even a top country in providing doctors to serve abroad in troubled places! And the Soviet Union was a horrendously corrupt place that failed in most respects to live up to communist ideals and yet still managed to compete technologically with the richest countries on the planet despite being economically far far far weaker in fundamentals. The U.S. only barely beat the Soviets in the space race etc while being massively richer. The Soviets had many orders of magnitude more losses in WWII also. The history of Communism is one where anti-communists did everything they could to undermine any success, the trials were full of corruption and abuse, and even still they had notable successes. The kibbutzen failed not strictly because all the ideas were unworkable. They failed because they had to function economically in a larger context. None of them had wealth along the lines of successful capitalists either. Capitalists have only ever operated capably by controlling a lot of capital or getting subsidy, at least in the form of law enforcement that serves the side of capital. We can conclude that all attempts at communism so far have had serious flaws. We can also conclude that capitalism has always had serious flaws too. Anyone who takes a polarized one-sided view on this stuff can be rejected as just being dogmatic. Piketty is not one of these one-sided dogmatic people, he's actually interested in studying empirical evidence and not concluding more than the evidence can truly support.

WalterBright 10y ago
> major problems That's a bit of an understatement. It has a pretty much 0% success rate, for both coercive and voluntary attempts. > capitalism has always had serious flaws too Yes, but nothing like the communist failures, and capitalism has had incredible success stories. > The Soviets had many orders of magnitude more losses in WWII also. Nobody doubts the heroism and sacrifice of the Red Army in WW2. That's a whole 'nother topic, though. > The U.S. only barely beat the Soviets in the space race etc while being massively richer. The USSR was able to direct massive resources at single problems, at the sacrifice at most everything else, but the US could do it with little sacrifice. > did everything they could to undermine any success Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter. > The kibbutzen failed not strictly because all the ideas were unworkable. They couldn't feed themselves. No communist system has ever been able to feed itself. All have required imports from capitalist economies, or starved, or tolerated capitalist farmers.
- quadrangle 10y ago
  > Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter. And communist ideas also had zero to do with those countries committing mass slaughter. Communism, even in a very flawed form, has indeed succeeded. See Cuba. The main reason they would be wealthier with capitalism is because the U.S. would have proactive economic ties instead of working to isolate them. Given their isolation and inherent lack-of-wealth relatively speaking, communism there is at least in a state no reasonable person can describe as 0% successful, even if you have points of criticism. In terms of kibbutzen, you do realize that the entire premise of self-suffiency, i.e. sustinance farming, is basically the definition of poverty, right? I mean, the whole premise that a small community can achieve for themselves in isolation a whole decent standard of living is nonsense. We acheive the greatest standards of living through widespread connection in larger groups on larger scales. Trade and all and specialization… No effort for tiny isolated communes could ever achieve the quality of life of large cosmopolitan economies, That issue isn't a strictly communist vs capitalist one. Communism is indeed a simplistic model that is unworkable in a rigid dogmatic sense, just like anarchy or capitalism. There's no example of pure version of any of these ever existing. Being closed to discussing the actual ideas of communism by just talking about Stalin's atrocities or tiny communes failing is a good way to just close yourself to actually engaging with the intellectual questions. Obviously, all philosophical / political principles are distinct from the complexity of real-world economic practice. We can still discuss the principles as a way to think about and explore the issues. Communist principles, as ideas, have nothing to do with mass slaughter.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > kibbutzen.. ..simply do not produce enough to sustain themselves. Capitalist farmers do, with a surplus they sell. All such voluntary collectives have collapsed (unless they get subsidies from the government). > have nothing to do with mass slaughter I strongly suggest reading "The Black Book of Communism". Every advocate of communism needs to read it, if only to prepare an answer. You're right that nothing in the principles of communism suggest mass slaughter. But those who try to implement it time and again resort to it. The reason is fairly straightforward - people resist having all their property expropriated and being forced to work on collectives. The response is to kill them. Again and again.

WalterBright 10y ago

> major problems That's a bit of an understatement. It has a pretty much 0% success rate, for both coercive and voluntary attempts. > capitalism has always had serious flaws too Yes, but nothing like the communist failures, and capitalism has had incredible success stories. > The Soviets had many orders of magnitude more losses in WWII also. Nobody doubts the heroism and sacrifice of the Red Army in WW2. That's a whole 'nother topic, though. > The U.S. only barely beat the Soviets in the space race etc while being massively richer. The USSR was able to direct massive resources at single problems, at the sacrifice at most everything else, but the US could do it with little sacrifice. > did everything they could to undermine any success Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter. > The kibbutzen failed not strictly because all the ideas were unworkable. They couldn't feed themselves. No communist system has ever been able to feed itself. All have required imports from capitalist economies, or starved, or tolerated capitalist farmers.

quadrangle 10y ago
> Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter. And communist ideas also had zero to do with those countries committing mass slaughter. Communism, even in a very flawed form, has indeed succeeded. See Cuba. The main reason they would be wealthier with capitalism is because the U.S. would have proactive economic ties instead of working to isolate them. Given their isolation and inherent lack-of-wealth relatively speaking, communism there is at least in a state no reasonable person can describe as 0% successful, even if you have points of criticism. In terms of kibbutzen, you do realize that the entire premise of self-suffiency, i.e. sustinance farming, is basically the definition of poverty, right? I mean, the whole premise that a small community can achieve for themselves in isolation a whole decent standard of living is nonsense. We acheive the greatest standards of living through widespread connection in larger groups on larger scales. Trade and all and specialization… No effort for tiny isolated communes could ever achieve the quality of life of large cosmopolitan economies, That issue isn't a strictly communist vs capitalist one. Communism is indeed a simplistic model that is unworkable in a rigid dogmatic sense, just like anarchy or capitalism. There's no example of pure version of any of these ever existing. Being closed to discussing the actual ideas of communism by just talking about Stalin's atrocities or tiny communes failing is a good way to just close yourself to actually engaging with the intellectual questions. Obviously, all philosophical / political principles are distinct from the complexity of real-world economic practice. We can still discuss the principles as a way to think about and explore the issues. Communist principles, as ideas, have nothing to do with mass slaughter.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  > kibbutzen.. ..simply do not produce enough to sustain themselves. Capitalist farmers do, with a surplus they sell. All such voluntary collectives have collapsed (unless they get subsidies from the government). > have nothing to do with mass slaughter I strongly suggest reading "The Black Book of Communism". Every advocate of communism needs to read it, if only to prepare an answer. You're right that nothing in the principles of communism suggest mass slaughter. But those who try to implement it time and again resort to it. The reason is fairly straightforward - people resist having all their property expropriated and being forced to work on collectives. The response is to kill them. Again and again.