4 ms·

And yet you choose to crab at the woman and not at the member who is putting words in my mouth and tarring me. Because your whiteknighting tendencies do so much

by Mz 10y ago

And yet you choose to crab at the woman and not at the member who is putting words in my mouth and tarring me. Because your whiteknighting tendencies do so much good for the status of women on HN.

tptacek 10y ago
If you really think I'm "white knighting" a woman shamed to suicide for her own rape, I think the point I just tried to make should be even clearer.
- Mz 10y ago
  If you fail to see that you never, ever engaging the top ranked woman here except to shoot her down completely contradicts your stated concern for the status of women, well, I don't know what to say to that. But, then, I never have known, which is why I haven't said it. You do this sort of thing a lot and it is much more about enhancing your ego than about enhancing the status of women, which you seem to be not terribly knowledgeable about how to do effectively.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    It's super weird to me that you perceive me this way, because my working model for you on this site is that I'm generally pretty happy to see you appearing in threads, and that we have an unusual amount of agreement with each other. I do not care about your assessment of how well I'm enhancing the status of women. I'm not an "ally", just a commenter with opinions. You can score me an "F" on the rest of it --- I take no offense. PS: For whatever it's worth, I simplied replied to the last comment on the thread --- I didn't single you out. But the thought did go through my mind that I should be relieved I was responding to you and not Dave, because Dave would flip the fuck out if I stepped in. :)
    - Mz 10y ago
      Well, this is completely news to me, because it does not match up with your behavior. The vast majority of the time, you appear to ignore me entirely. The only time you engage me, it appears to be to put me in my place. I cannot recall you ever expressing agreement with me on the site. If I simply have not noticed it, I would be thrilled to pieces to see evidence that it occurs and I simply missed it. Because I am entirely unaware of it, but painfully aware of the negative effect that the shunning of women by top ranked members has here. Thank you for the comment though.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        My mental model is that I don't generally respond to comments I agree with; I just upvote them. But maybe I'm doing something that makes it seem like I'm me-tooing some comments and not yours? I'll be more mindful! I'm married to (and business partners with) a woman in a competitive part of tech. I do not need to be convinced that this kind of stuff happens to women, or that I might be contributing to it myself by some stupid habit of expression. To whatever extent I've done that in the past: I'm sorry! I actually do worry about point-scoring with comments about misogyny, by the way, so much so that right after I wrote my comment towards the top of the thread, I sanity checked it with Erin, who has taken me to task before for appropriating her anger at how women are treated in our industry and scoring RT's and likes with it. She said this particular case --- and that comment at the top of the thread --- were so bad that I was in the clear this time. If you see me doing that somewhere else on HN, you'll be doing me a favor to point it out, and I'll do my best to listen and respond civilly.
        Mz 10y ago
        Thank you. I am about to log off, possibly for essentially the rest of the evening. Have a good discussion, probably without me from here on out.
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    I'm offering a formal apology: if I have misrepresented your position while pointing out the insidious look alikeness of the argument offered at the top of this thread: I apologize. But your gender identity means little to me nor will it soften my tone if you want to defend that argument. It is at its core an argument that deserves to be censured. It is another plank in the structure that blames victims of sexual assault.
    - Mz 10y ago
      My actual position is that a good argument against the top comment here is that a) this is an incredibly bad place to be trying to make such a point and b) if you want to make such a point, even under better circumstances, you really, seriously need to up your game as to expressing yourself clearly, sensitively and in a nuanced manner. But the reality is that there are studies suggesting that porn has reduced the incidence of rape and that conservative eras where good girls cannot put out have a great deal more prostitution. So, the essence of his position is not incorrect. It in no way justifies this heinous crime, but raking him over the coals over the deficiencies in his writing also in no way will improve his ability to express the idea effectively and appropriately. Thank you for the apology. Rest assured I have no desire to have you "soften your tone" over my gender. http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-its-girl.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-it...
      - KirinDave 10y ago
        > My actual position is that a good argument against the top comment here is that a) this is an incredibly bad place to be trying to make such a point and b) if you want to make such a point, even under better circumstances, you really, seriously need to up your game as to expressing yourself clearly, sensitively and in a nuanced manner. I have a great deal of difficulty reading this position from your response above. But I will take you at your word. Thank you, I appreciate the time you spent further clarifying your point to me. > It in no way justifies this heinous crime, but raking him over the coals over the deficiencies in his writing also in no way will improve his ability to express the idea effectively and appropriately. I am not here to or improve anyone. I am here to coldly and meticulously point out misogyny and rape culture of Hacker News wherever I see it. I am not interested in correcting behavior beyond that. It's not my place or my desire to be anything other than to throw a bucket of cold water on every case of it I see. If you feel a higher calling, I wish you good luck. I no longer care to attempt to carefully untangle if someone is an MRA or if they are just using arguments very much like an MRA uses.

by Mz 10y ago

And yet you choose to crab at the woman and not at the member who is putting words in my mouth and tarring me. Because your whiteknighting tendencies do so much good for the status of women on HN.

tptacek 10y ago

If you really think I'm "white knighting" a woman shamed to suicide for her own rape, I think the point I just tried to make should be even clearer.

Mz 10y ago
If you fail to see that you never, ever engaging the top ranked woman here except to shoot her down completely contradicts your stated concern for the status of women, well, I don't know what to say to that. But, then, I never have known, which is why I haven't said it. You do this sort of thing a lot and it is much more about enhancing your ego than about enhancing the status of women, which you seem to be not terribly knowledgeable about how to do effectively.
- tptacek 10y ago
  It's super weird to me that you perceive me this way, because my working model for you on this site is that I'm generally pretty happy to see you appearing in threads, and that we have an unusual amount of agreement with each other. I do not care about your assessment of how well I'm enhancing the status of women. I'm not an "ally", just a commenter with opinions. You can score me an "F" on the rest of it --- I take no offense. PS: For whatever it's worth, I simplied replied to the last comment on the thread --- I didn't single you out. But the thought did go through my mind that I should be relieved I was responding to you and not Dave, because Dave would flip the fuck out if I stepped in. :)
  - Mz 10y ago
    Well, this is completely news to me, because it does not match up with your behavior. The vast majority of the time, you appear to ignore me entirely. The only time you engage me, it appears to be to put me in my place. I cannot recall you ever expressing agreement with me on the site. If I simply have not noticed it, I would be thrilled to pieces to see evidence that it occurs and I simply missed it. Because I am entirely unaware of it, but painfully aware of the negative effect that the shunning of women by top ranked members has here. Thank you for the comment though.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      My mental model is that I don't generally respond to comments I agree with; I just upvote them. But maybe I'm doing something that makes it seem like I'm me-tooing some comments and not yours? I'll be more mindful! I'm married to (and business partners with) a woman in a competitive part of tech. I do not need to be convinced that this kind of stuff happens to women, or that I might be contributing to it myself by some stupid habit of expression. To whatever extent I've done that in the past: I'm sorry! I actually do worry about point-scoring with comments about misogyny, by the way, so much so that right after I wrote my comment towards the top of the thread, I sanity checked it with Erin, who has taken me to task before for appropriating her anger at how women are treated in our industry and scoring RT's and likes with it. She said this particular case --- and that comment at the top of the thread --- were so bad that I was in the clear this time. If you see me doing that somewhere else on HN, you'll be doing me a favor to point it out, and I'll do my best to listen and respond civilly.
      - Mz 10y ago
        Thank you. I am about to log off, possibly for essentially the rest of the evening. Have a good discussion, probably without me from here on out.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  I'm offering a formal apology: if I have misrepresented your position while pointing out the insidious look alikeness of the argument offered at the top of this thread: I apologize. But your gender identity means little to me nor will it soften my tone if you want to defend that argument. It is at its core an argument that deserves to be censured. It is another plank in the structure that blames victims of sexual assault.
  - Mz 10y ago
    My actual position is that a good argument against the top comment here is that a) this is an incredibly bad place to be trying to make such a point and b) if you want to make such a point, even under better circumstances, you really, seriously need to up your game as to expressing yourself clearly, sensitively and in a nuanced manner. But the reality is that there are studies suggesting that porn has reduced the incidence of rape and that conservative eras where good girls cannot put out have a great deal more prostitution. So, the essence of his position is not incorrect. It in no way justifies this heinous crime, but raking him over the coals over the deficiencies in his writing also in no way will improve his ability to express the idea effectively and appropriately. Thank you for the apology. Rest assured I have no desire to have you "soften your tone" over my gender. http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-its-girl.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-it...
    - KirinDave 10y ago
      > My actual position is that a good argument against the top comment here is that a) this is an incredibly bad place to be trying to make such a point and b) if you want to make such a point, even under better circumstances, you really, seriously need to up your game as to expressing yourself clearly, sensitively and in a nuanced manner. I have a great deal of difficulty reading this position from your response above. But I will take you at your word. Thank you, I appreciate the time you spent further clarifying your point to me. > It in no way justifies this heinous crime, but raking him over the coals over the deficiencies in his writing also in no way will improve his ability to express the idea effectively and appropriately. I am not here to or improve anyone. I am here to coldly and meticulously point out misogyny and rape culture of Hacker News wherever I see it. I am not interested in correcting behavior beyond that. It's not my place or my desire to be anything other than to throw a bucket of cold water on every case of it I see. If you feel a higher calling, I wish you good luck. I no longer care to attempt to carefully untangle if someone is an MRA or if they are just using arguments very much like an MRA uses.