7 ms·

I think your advice sounds great for people living in a Star Trek utopia where people only work to better themselves. However in our present time, how many peo

I think your advice sounds great for people living in a Star Trek utopia where people only work to better themselves. However in our present time, how many people can seriously consider going to college without careful thought to how it will relate to their career? I'd love to go to art school but not be an artist. While I'm at it, I'd also like to earn graduate degrees in history, literature, and philosophy (might help my lateral thinking).

matt4077 10y ago
If I understand it correctly, the US is actually the perfect system to go to an art school and still make a career in a traditional field: You can still go to law school or HBS. Many people suffer from "premature optimization", trying to do business-related stuff because they see McKinsey in their future. I've met quite a few people from those global consultancies, and they actively encourage people to study theology or modern french literature. And don't get me started on parents asking for their children's middle schools to "focus on accounting, not these useless languages"...
- gtaylor 10y ago
  If you go that route, you'd better not fail. The debt would be crushing.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - orbifold 10y ago
    Easy solution: Your parents are well off. Then a lot of those choices are less dramatic.
    - zachrose 10y ago
      Easier solution for most: go to a not-insanely-priced in-state public university.
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  My guess is that they want French Literature and theology degrees from Stanford/Ivy/etc schools. If you go to Chico State you're much better off with a CS or accounting degree. I can't imagine the average state school liberal arts degree holder has a viable white collar career field with just that degree. Sorta like its better to have a Stanford law degree and have had mediocre grades, than it is to have graduated at the top of your class from Santa Clara.
  - bigtunacan 10y ago
    Your lack of imagination doesn't match up with reality. Over my long career I have seen that the overarching large corporations have a glass ceiling that can only be broken through by having at least a Bachelor's degree no matter the degree. But don't take my word for it. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/22/see-how-liberal-arts-grads-really-fare-report-examines-long-term-data https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/22/see-how-liber...
    - Slothrop99 10y ago
      Your argument says nothing about a university's reputation and its effect on salaries, so its completely irrelevant to ZanyProgrammer's point. I wouldn't be surprised if an english major from Stanford out-earns an engineer from Chico, because there's lots of companies who only hire "the best" (aka people from top universities). Yeah, everyone knows that a bachelor's is the minimal requirement. But I've never seen or heard of a situation of someone being denied promotion because of the lack of a degree. (Maybe in the government?) OTOH, I've worked with a lot of business people who can't even type a coherent email, much less do anything which isn't completely reactionary. I'd say the degree is mostly incidental and not the root cause.
      - serf 10y ago
        > Yeah, everyone knows that a bachelor's is the minimal requirement. But I've never seen or heard of a situation of someone being denied promotion because of the lack of a degree. (Maybe in the government?) try government contractors. Aerospace, in particular, loves to teach minimal education/salary employees skilled engineering trades on-the-job and then slap the title 'engineering intern' or 'junior engineer' onto them, a small increase in pay, and a huge increase in responsibility. 'Junior engineer' is typically what employees who are going to school for an applicable field get thrown into until graduation, at which point they become full fledged engineers -- but the title also serves as a ceiling for those who have chosen to not pursue further education. I don't know if it is fair to equate a ceiling in pay to a denial in promotion, but they sure seem similar from a practical perspective.
- tnecniv 10y ago
  I knew a doctor who did admissions at a well-regarded med school. They said the best applications didn't come from the kids who studied bio or chem as an undergrad because they figured a field related to medicine would make them competitive but from those who studied what they found interesting (including bio or chem). These applicants not only had better grades on average, but they tended to have much more interesting applications because they really dug into something because they loved it, not as a means to an end.
  - Fomite 10y ago
    I'm currently at an infectious disease medical conference. Several of the major keynotes, given by immensely successful and influential doctors, contain defenses of, or references to, a classic liberal arts education.
- sjg007 10y ago
  Yep. Makes you well rounded and you can tell interesting stories to your clients.
- geezerjay 10y ago
  > I've met quite a few people from those global consultancies, and they actively encourage people to study theology or modern french literature. They encourage it because building personal relationships and projecting a positive (and impressive) personal image are important business assets. Between a guy who is 100% technical and have no personality and a guy who is 80% technical but is also able to hold an intelligent conversation in french about how modern literature reflects theological influences, the latter will be better suited to conduct business. There's a reason why engineers stay in the backrooms while the polished business-minded yuppie is in charge of business.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
The thing with a degree - at least in the US - is that it often doesn't matter so much what your degree is in, but that you have one. It opens some doors - even if they aren't well paid doors. It really doesn't matter so much so long as you don't hate your life - in the end, it is just a job. All the knowlege, literature, philosophy and art keeps the rest of life better. Besides. Your view is one of maturity. I would be more prudent now -in my late 30's - but when I was 16, 18, and 22? I just wanted to go to learn stuff. Neat stuff. I wanted art school because I wanted to learn to do neat stuff. I've never really cared about a career, but that's worked out to be a bonus for me. Just a different balance in life priorities.
zachrose 10y ago
I'll make an argument that going to school for art will closely relate to many careers. Art school trains students to 1) put new things into the world and take intellectual responsibility for them, 2) learn an arbitrary and mostly-historical set of techniques that nonetheless take dedication to master, and 3) engage deeply with what other disciplines shrug off as "human factors." In my eventual career developing software, those things have come in handy. Perhaps more importantly, an art education has made me see software development as more than just problem solving or engineering. I may never be Michaelangelo or Kara Walker, but I still like trying to master one tiny corner of the universe and make things that other people will want in their lives. I'm also not advocating spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a BFA, but I won't advocate against it either. To me it makes about as much sense as buying a $250k car or stereo.
codingdave 10y ago
Why would such an education have a negative impact on your career? It teaches communication, makes sure you know how to get your ideas out into a consumable format, and teaches critical thinking. All of these skills will be valuable in just about any career. And that is exactly why I think higher education is a good idea. Admittedly, paying for it is tougher now than when I was in school... but the leap from "It is too expensive" to "It is not a worthwhile education" is not quite correct. When I was in school, the general attitude was that any bachelor's degree will help any career. A Masters degree will only help a career in that specific field, and a PhD will only help you in academia. I think this is still accurate, but the cost of tuition has masked the underlying value of the education.
- jacalata 10y ago
  "it's too expensive" actually translates exactly to "the education is not worth the cost".
  - sparky_z 10y ago
    Hardly. Whether or not something is a ripoff is orthogonal to whether or not you can afford it.
    - somestag 10y ago
      Depends on your perspective. If you had infinite money, everything would effectively be free no matter how much it costed, and "value" to you wouldn't be a function of cost at all, but rather one of factors like time and convenience. No one has infinite money, but the more money you have, the less the cost of something matters, and in exchange the other factors matter more. For a relevant example, I think that a liberal arts degree is a wonderful thing. The experience itself is hugely positive. If you're not already financially secure, however, I think that spending $200,000 on a liberal arts degree is a bad idea. The return on investment is low compared to some other things you could spend $200k. It is, indeed, a "ripoff." If you're already very wealthy, the equation changes. $200k has less value to you, so the education itself is relatively more valuable in exchange. If you're wealthy enough, the economic benefits may become completely irrelevant, which makes the liberal arts education an extremely efficient use of your resources because of the other benefits it provides that you'd struggle to obtain any other way. A $200k liberal arts education may only provide minor benefits over a $50k one, so you could say it's "not worth" 4x the cost. A scam, practically. But if you're wealthy enough, the $150k may not matter as much as the minor benefits do. Basically, "worth" is not some intrinsic property of an object, but instead entirely dependent on your frame of reference.
garrickvanburen 10y ago
I went to art school the same year Netscape launched. It was easy to see the potential for good design & creative - that was both created & presented digitally. At the time, my school didn't have a program for this, I had to shoe-horn it into the existing design program. Nor was there, at the time, a well understood title in the professional world for my skills & approach & experience. At any given time through my early career was a: 'visual web designer', 'information architect', 'cognitive designer', 'user experience consultant', 'usability expert', 'full-stack web developer'. So, yea, go to art school as it just might show you what doesn't yet exist and how to make a career there. I'd also recommend minoring in business.
vanderZwan 10y ago
> I think your advice sounds great for people living in a Star Trek utopia where people only work to better themselves. Or, you know, any country where you can study without ending up burdened with crippling student debt. There's a few of them; I went to art school in one.
- Retric 10y ago
  It still costs ~4 years.
  - vanderZwan 10y ago
    This is true. I considered it worth that price, I can totally see why most would not.
  - Zelmor 10y ago
    4 years of pre-labour market years, yes. Instead, you gain perspective, connections and learn a thing or more about critical thinking and communication. I say hogwash to these 'don't go to art school' opinions. Come to Europe, we have free education. Learn what you want, and be willing to pick up new things as you go along.
    - smcl 10y ago
      Many of our countries have free education for students coming from other EU member states, however there's usually a different set of fees. Take the current fees for the university and course I did: https://www.hw.ac.uk/undergraduate/computer-science.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/undergraduate/computer-science.htm Scotland/EU students: Free England/NI/Wales: £9,250 International: £17,440
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - LunaSea 10y ago
      Connections in a world you won't work in and four years of studies in a maybe free educations system yes but where you will have to pay rent without having an income.

matt4077 10y ago

If I understand it correctly, the US is actually the perfect system to go to an art school and still make a career in a traditional field: You can still go to law school or HBS. Many people suffer from "premature optimization", trying to do business-related stuff because they see McKinsey in their future. I've met quite a few people from those global consultancies, and they actively encourage people to study theology or modern french literature. And don't get me started on parents asking for their children's middle schools to "focus on accounting, not these useless languages"...

gtaylor 10y ago
If you go that route, you'd better not fail. The debt would be crushing.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- orbifold 10y ago
  Easy solution: Your parents are well off. Then a lot of those choices are less dramatic.
  - zachrose 10y ago
    Easier solution for most: go to a not-insanely-priced in-state public university.
ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
My guess is that they want French Literature and theology degrees from Stanford/Ivy/etc schools. If you go to Chico State you're much better off with a CS or accounting degree. I can't imagine the average state school liberal arts degree holder has a viable white collar career field with just that degree. Sorta like its better to have a Stanford law degree and have had mediocre grades, than it is to have graduated at the top of your class from Santa Clara.
- bigtunacan 10y ago
  Your lack of imagination doesn't match up with reality. Over my long career I have seen that the overarching large corporations have a glass ceiling that can only be broken through by having at least a Bachelor's degree no matter the degree. But don't take my word for it. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/22/see-how-liberal-arts-grads-really-fare-report-examines-long-term-data https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/22/see-how-liber...
  - Slothrop99 10y ago
    Your argument says nothing about a university's reputation and its effect on salaries, so its completely irrelevant to ZanyProgrammer's point. I wouldn't be surprised if an english major from Stanford out-earns an engineer from Chico, because there's lots of companies who only hire "the best" (aka people from top universities). Yeah, everyone knows that a bachelor's is the minimal requirement. But I've never seen or heard of a situation of someone being denied promotion because of the lack of a degree. (Maybe in the government?) OTOH, I've worked with a lot of business people who can't even type a coherent email, much less do anything which isn't completely reactionary. I'd say the degree is mostly incidental and not the root cause.
    - serf 10y ago
      > Yeah, everyone knows that a bachelor's is the minimal requirement. But I've never seen or heard of a situation of someone being denied promotion because of the lack of a degree. (Maybe in the government?) try government contractors. Aerospace, in particular, loves to teach minimal education/salary employees skilled engineering trades on-the-job and then slap the title 'engineering intern' or 'junior engineer' onto them, a small increase in pay, and a huge increase in responsibility. 'Junior engineer' is typically what employees who are going to school for an applicable field get thrown into until graduation, at which point they become full fledged engineers -- but the title also serves as a ceiling for those who have chosen to not pursue further education. I don't know if it is fair to equate a ceiling in pay to a denial in promotion, but they sure seem similar from a practical perspective.
tnecniv 10y ago
I knew a doctor who did admissions at a well-regarded med school. They said the best applications didn't come from the kids who studied bio or chem as an undergrad because they figured a field related to medicine would make them competitive but from those who studied what they found interesting (including bio or chem). These applicants not only had better grades on average, but they tended to have much more interesting applications because they really dug into something because they loved it, not as a means to an end.
- Fomite 10y ago
  I'm currently at an infectious disease medical conference. Several of the major keynotes, given by immensely successful and influential doctors, contain defenses of, or references to, a classic liberal arts education.
sjg007 10y ago
Yep. Makes you well rounded and you can tell interesting stories to your clients.
geezerjay 10y ago
> I've met quite a few people from those global consultancies, and they actively encourage people to study theology or modern french literature. They encourage it because building personal relationships and projecting a positive (and impressive) personal image are important business assets. Between a guy who is 100% technical and have no personality and a guy who is 80% technical but is also able to hold an intelligent conversation in french about how modern literature reflects theological influences, the latter will be better suited to conduct business. There's a reason why engineers stay in the backrooms while the polished business-minded yuppie is in charge of business.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

The thing with a degree - at least in the US - is that it often doesn't matter so much what your degree is in, but that you have one. It opens some doors - even if they aren't well paid doors. It really doesn't matter so much so long as you don't hate your life - in the end, it is just a job. All the knowlege, literature, philosophy and art keeps the rest of life better. Besides. Your view is one of maturity. I would be more prudent now -in my late 30's - but when I was 16, 18, and 22? I just wanted to go to learn stuff. Neat stuff. I wanted art school because I wanted to learn to do neat stuff. I've never really cared about a career, but that's worked out to be a bonus for me. Just a different balance in life priorities.

zachrose 10y ago

I'll make an argument that going to school for art will closely relate to many careers. Art school trains students to 1) put new things into the world and take intellectual responsibility for them, 2) learn an arbitrary and mostly-historical set of techniques that nonetheless take dedication to master, and 3) engage deeply with what other disciplines shrug off as "human factors." In my eventual career developing software, those things have come in handy. Perhaps more importantly, an art education has made me see software development as more than just problem solving or engineering. I may never be Michaelangelo or Kara Walker, but I still like trying to master one tiny corner of the universe and make things that other people will want in their lives. I'm also not advocating spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a BFA, but I won't advocate against it either. To me it makes about as much sense as buying a $250k car or stereo.

codingdave 10y ago

Why would such an education have a negative impact on your career? It teaches communication, makes sure you know how to get your ideas out into a consumable format, and teaches critical thinking. All of these skills will be valuable in just about any career. And that is exactly why I think higher education is a good idea. Admittedly, paying for it is tougher now than when I was in school... but the leap from "It is too expensive" to "It is not a worthwhile education" is not quite correct. When I was in school, the general attitude was that any bachelor's degree will help any career. A Masters degree will only help a career in that specific field, and a PhD will only help you in academia. I think this is still accurate, but the cost of tuition has masked the underlying value of the education.

jacalata 10y ago
"it's too expensive" actually translates exactly to "the education is not worth the cost".
- sparky_z 10y ago
  Hardly. Whether or not something is a ripoff is orthogonal to whether or not you can afford it.
  - somestag 10y ago
    Depends on your perspective. If you had infinite money, everything would effectively be free no matter how much it costed, and "value" to you wouldn't be a function of cost at all, but rather one of factors like time and convenience. No one has infinite money, but the more money you have, the less the cost of something matters, and in exchange the other factors matter more. For a relevant example, I think that a liberal arts degree is a wonderful thing. The experience itself is hugely positive. If you're not already financially secure, however, I think that spending $200,000 on a liberal arts degree is a bad idea. The return on investment is low compared to some other things you could spend $200k. It is, indeed, a "ripoff." If you're already very wealthy, the equation changes. $200k has less value to you, so the education itself is relatively more valuable in exchange. If you're wealthy enough, the economic benefits may become completely irrelevant, which makes the liberal arts education an extremely efficient use of your resources because of the other benefits it provides that you'd struggle to obtain any other way. A $200k liberal arts education may only provide minor benefits over a $50k one, so you could say it's "not worth" 4x the cost. A scam, practically. But if you're wealthy enough, the $150k may not matter as much as the minor benefits do. Basically, "worth" is not some intrinsic property of an object, but instead entirely dependent on your frame of reference.

garrickvanburen 10y ago

I went to art school the same year Netscape launched. It was easy to see the potential for good design & creative - that was both created & presented digitally. At the time, my school didn't have a program for this, I had to shoe-horn it into the existing design program. Nor was there, at the time, a well understood title in the professional world for my skills & approach & experience. At any given time through my early career was a: 'visual web designer', 'information architect', 'cognitive designer', 'user experience consultant', 'usability expert', 'full-stack web developer'. So, yea, go to art school as it just might show you what doesn't yet exist and how to make a career there. I'd also recommend minoring in business.

vanderZwan 10y ago

> I think your advice sounds great for people living in a Star Trek utopia where people only work to better themselves. Or, you know, any country where you can study without ending up burdened with crippling student debt. There's a few of them; I went to art school in one.

Retric 10y ago
It still costs ~4 years.
- vanderZwan 10y ago
  This is true. I considered it worth that price, I can totally see why most would not.
- Zelmor 10y ago
  4 years of pre-labour market years, yes. Instead, you gain perspective, connections and learn a thing or more about critical thinking and communication. I say hogwash to these 'don't go to art school' opinions. Come to Europe, we have free education. Learn what you want, and be willing to pick up new things as you go along.
  - smcl 10y ago
    Many of our countries have free education for students coming from other EU member states, however there's usually a different set of fees. Take the current fees for the university and course I did: https://www.hw.ac.uk/undergraduate/computer-science.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/undergraduate/computer-science.htm Scotland/EU students: Free England/NI/Wales: £9,250 International: £17,440
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - LunaSea 10y ago
    Connections in a world you won't work in and four years of studies in a maybe free educations system yes but where you will have to pay rent without having an income.