6 ms·

Some societies are worse than others, but if even in the self-proclaimed modern civilization of the western world professionals in the adult entertainment or se

by cm3 10y ago

Some societies are worse than others, but if even in the self-proclaimed modern civilization of the western world professionals in the adult entertainment or sex/erotic services industry are treated like 2nd class citizens, there's a need for a more substantial shift in perception and treatment of something that's as natural as eating and sleeping. It's unnatural that many societies have created ways to suppress human nature in many ways they deem morally incorrect, and it's very wrong that laws reflect the moral world views of some. I won't go into how there used to be societies which in some regards were more open and safer than today's, or how the treatment by a part of some religious communities goes against those religions' core beliefs. Empowering people to defend themselves and deal with abuse in a dignified way is very important, and we first need to stop blaming victims as "promiscuous" or "having asked for it". This isn't very different from how we treat people who went to prison. EDIT: We also need to find a good way to investigate accusations without automatically assuming that, for instance, alleged male perpetrators are by default considered (not found, to be clear) guilty, or that wives do not abuse their husbands. The described societal defects are partly to blame, as are underequipped/unskilled law enforcement or judicial departments. If someone can lose their job and family because anybody merely publicly accuses them of a sex crime or adultery, then it's clear we have a problem on the other end of the spectrum. To me, both are caused by related societal flaws and will take a long time to correct. Another way this surfaces is that people tend to worry more about a government official's personal life than their positive/negative acts in office.

tptacek 10y ago
Up is down. Black is white. Pants are shirts. A story about a woman who was shamed into suicide by a culture --- one of the world's largest --- that blames women for their own violent rapes is evidence that society needs to correct its bias against men.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- cm3 10y ago
  And it may not have helped that the place in question has tribalism in place which classifies persons by their heritage in ways that are unimaginable to most of the HN crowd.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    And?
    - cm3 10y ago
      I'm sorry, what are you asking?
      - tptacek 10y ago
        What your point was, just now.
        cm3 10y ago
        My point was that the structure of said society may lend itself more to facilitate the events leading to the inexcusable, tragic result. That said, there have also been harassment/bullying (not comparing, equalizing the events, to be clear) victims in the US that committed suicide, so I think I get what you're asking. Let me try to rephrase: I'm not saying this was the case in this incident, but the fairly unique classification rules of the society in question may increase the chances of such an outcome and be another reason to rethink the rules.
        KirinDave 10y ago
        You're doing exactly what drove this poor woman to suicide here: saying her rape and subsequent shaming was all but inevitable and until the monsters that did this to here are perpetually appeased, what happened to her is at least partially her fault (either directly or indirectly). Your sentiment is vile and dehumanizing. It's carefully veiled and couched so as to make it appear to be a cousin of a feninist appeal for sex workers rights, with the safety of these victims in mind. But even casual inspection of your intent reveals that you believe that unless sated by a sex industry, rape is inevitable and we shouldn't blame the monsters who commit it. I am sure you will protest this and cite the weight of history. Men's rights advocates usually do. And I'll happily point out that progressivism and the slow progress of women's rights against all odds and a nearly endless series of arguments like yours is also a pressure of history. One that many of us are working to further.
ethanbond 10y ago
People's lives are ruined when they're accused of/charged with any crime, regardless of if they're found innocent later on. It's weird that we only ever see people complaining about this form of it. Predictable, but weird.
- cm3 10y ago
  You're right. In some communities it's enough for a police car to come to your house for the neighborhood to treat you differently.
cm3 10y ago
KirinDave points out in a sibling comment that what I wrote here can be read to blame rape victims. Under no circumstance is that the message I was trying communicate, but I take full responsibility for failing to write an unambiguous comment. I did not mean to blame the victim, and don't think I did, but I'm willing to learn from my failed wording to not repeat in the future. What I tried to express is that due to the way sexuality is handled in most societies, we mistreat rape victims as a result. I'm sorry I failed to convey that message clearly. I'd be grateful if you can quote what parts can be read in a way that I didn't intend them to be, and I'll either choose less ambiguous expressions or omit the thought entirely, seeing how hard it is to communicate precisely.
- Mz 10y ago
  Here is an example of wording on this type of topic that you may find useful: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/not-really-rude.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/not-really-r...
- tptacek 10y ago
  I don't see you as blaming rape victims. What I see instead is: * A repetition of the trope that sexual culture is to blame for the impact of rape. Rape isn't sex, and prudishness what forced this woman to kill herself. Misogyny was. The issue in the culture we're describing --- and in its echoes in our own culture --- is the power dynamic between men and women, in which women are seen as having an obligation to somehow temper the sexual impulses of men they come into contact with, or else avoid men altogether. * A diversion from what is a Handmaid's Tale-grade story about the victimization of women to the entirely unrelated topic of whether men suffer unduly from accusations of rape. That's particularly galling given the specifics of this story. Whether you intended to or not, your comment --- which as Michele notes is at the top of the thread --- had the clear effect of minimizing the tragedy and injustice depicted in this story. I think we should be ashamed of this whole HN thread, which is dominated more by whether the BBC's reporting was unfair to a 400 billion dollar social networking company than by any kind of reflection about what happened to the subject of the story. I don't know you at all, and I make no claims about what your intent actually was. I'm happy to assume that this was all unintentional. I'm writing about your comment, not about you.

by cm3 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

Up is down. Black is white. Pants are shirts. A story about a woman who was shamed into suicide by a culture --- one of the world's largest --- that blames women for their own violent rapes is evidence that society needs to correct its bias against men.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cm3 10y ago
And it may not have helped that the place in question has tribalism in place which classifies persons by their heritage in ways that are unimaginable to most of the HN crowd.
- tptacek 10y ago
  And?
  - cm3 10y ago
    I'm sorry, what are you asking?
    - tptacek 10y ago
      What your point was, just now.
      - cm3 10y ago
        My point was that the structure of said society may lend itself more to facilitate the events leading to the inexcusable, tragic result. That said, there have also been harassment/bullying (not comparing, equalizing the events, to be clear) victims in the US that committed suicide, so I think I get what you're asking. Let me try to rephrase: I'm not saying this was the case in this incident, but the fairly unique classification rules of the society in question may increase the chances of such an outcome and be another reason to rethink the rules.
        KirinDave 10y ago
        You're doing exactly what drove this poor woman to suicide here: saying her rape and subsequent shaming was all but inevitable and until the monsters that did this to here are perpetually appeased, what happened to her is at least partially her fault (either directly or indirectly). Your sentiment is vile and dehumanizing. It's carefully veiled and couched so as to make it appear to be a cousin of a feninist appeal for sex workers rights, with the safety of these victims in mind. But even casual inspection of your intent reveals that you believe that unless sated by a sex industry, rape is inevitable and we shouldn't blame the monsters who commit it. I am sure you will protest this and cite the weight of history. Men's rights advocates usually do. And I'll happily point out that progressivism and the slow progress of women's rights against all odds and a nearly endless series of arguments like yours is also a pressure of history. One that many of us are working to further.

ethanbond 10y ago

People's lives are ruined when they're accused of/charged with any crime, regardless of if they're found innocent later on. It's weird that we only ever see people complaining about this form of it. Predictable, but weird.

cm3 10y ago
You're right. In some communities it's enough for a police car to come to your house for the neighborhood to treat you differently.

cm3 10y ago

KirinDave points out in a sibling comment that what I wrote here can be read to blame rape victims. Under no circumstance is that the message I was trying communicate, but I take full responsibility for failing to write an unambiguous comment. I did not mean to blame the victim, and don't think I did, but I'm willing to learn from my failed wording to not repeat in the future. What I tried to express is that due to the way sexuality is handled in most societies, we mistreat rape victims as a result. I'm sorry I failed to convey that message clearly. I'd be grateful if you can quote what parts can be read in a way that I didn't intend them to be, and I'll either choose less ambiguous expressions or omit the thought entirely, seeing how hard it is to communicate precisely.

Mz 10y ago
Here is an example of wording on this type of topic that you may find useful: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/not-really-rude.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/not-really-r...
tptacek 10y ago
I don't see you as blaming rape victims. What I see instead is: * A repetition of the trope that sexual culture is to blame for the impact of rape. Rape isn't sex, and prudishness what forced this woman to kill herself. Misogyny was. The issue in the culture we're describing --- and in its echoes in our own culture --- is the power dynamic between men and women, in which women are seen as having an obligation to somehow temper the sexual impulses of men they come into contact with, or else avoid men altogether. * A diversion from what is a Handmaid's Tale-grade story about the victimization of women to the entirely unrelated topic of whether men suffer unduly from accusations of rape. That's particularly galling given the specifics of this story. Whether you intended to or not, your comment --- which as Michele notes is at the top of the thread --- had the clear effect of minimizing the tragedy and injustice depicted in this story. I think we should be ashamed of this whole HN thread, which is dominated more by whether the BBC's reporting was unfair to a 400 billion dollar social networking company than by any kind of reflection about what happened to the subject of the story. I don't know you at all, and I make no claims about what your intent actually was. I'm happy to assume that this was all unintentional. I'm writing about your comment, not about you.