6 ms·

Apple just told the world it has no idea who the Mac is for

89 points by guruz 10y ago

badestrand 10y ago
In The Hard Thing About Hard Things Ben Horowitz says there is two types of really successfull people in the business word: Chaotic visionaries and orderly executioners, called type 1 and type 2. I think Apple is a perfect example for this, with Jobs having been the visionary and Cook the guy who implements these visions. Horowitz stated that a company works only well with the visionary at the top. We can see how true this as Cook just is not creative. I am sure he works really hard and is really smart but he should have never gotten to where he is now. At first I thought he would only be a interim solution to manage Apple while they search for another creative genius but that seems not to be the case.
- dahdum 10y ago
  I thought Ives was the chaotic visionary now, with Cook the business leader. With such a string of success Ives has had I figure only a flop (imo like this) would give Cook the leverage needed for change.
  - dilemma 10y ago
    Ive looks more like an implementer than a visionary to me.
  - carlivar 10y ago
    I think it's one of two things: 1) Most of Apple design is now by committee, which is why the Settings in an iPhone are a maze of confusion, especially around iCloud. The iPhone was supposed to be easy to use. Maybe it still is as long as one pays for and trusts iCloud (didn't work out well for Jennifer Lawrence). 2) Ive isn't the the genius we all think he is. I think this is more likely the case. If I remember correctly, Jobs liked the "skeuomorph" design style (design based on the original object) but Ive did not. I do not think it is coincidence that iOS became much more "cartoon" looking after Jobs died. I personally do not like it. But I think it shows that Ive is in complete control. If he is, Ive is to blame why I have to provide tech support for iOS settings to my friends and family now. If you extrapolate this complexity to the rest of Apple, things are way off track from Jobs' vision.
  - TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
    I think both Ives and Cook were implementers. Jobs was the chaotic visionary. He would not have let these devices ship with the gaps in the OP. This is what I was hoping would not happen, but figured would.
- wklauss 10y ago
  He got to where he is now because the visionary put him there. Like all reductionism, Horowitz thesis looks good in a business book, it makes the world simple. Reality is complex and that statement ("a company works only well with the visionary at the top") it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy (the company is doing good. His CEO must be a visionary, then, since he anticipated the needs of the market).
jedanbik 10y ago
We're developers. Let's write new software. Let's build new tools.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  Let's buy new brands of laptops?
M_Grey 10y ago
Why can’t you plug the Lightning headphones that come in the iPhone box into the new Mac? Why doesn’t the iPhone come with the right cable for the new MacBook Pro? Why doesn’t Apple make a screen that properly works with its own devices? Why did Apple highlight how great the Touch Bar is for Messaging, but didn’t even port most of the new iMessage features to macOS properly? Do I have to carry two pairs of headphones now? How do I charge my Lightning cable mouse? Why remove the HDMI port, a standard that’s still incredibly popular for plugging into TVs? Why remove the SD card, a popular slot for… creatives using cameras? Yikes. I mean... yikes. I hope Apple has some good answers to most of those questions.
- d33 10y ago
  I don't really believe there are good answers to those.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - LaSombra 10y ago
    Probably the same one as the iPhone headphone jack, courage.
  - koder2016 10y ago
    People shouldn't have complained about their software and icon re-design. Now they are trying to distract us with hardware problems!
- rangibaby 10y ago
  It's sad because when I first switched to Apple (~2008) I was extremely impressed by small things like the iPhone earphone remote 100% working when plugged into a Mac. It was a huge change from PC-land, where getting anything working was a challenge. Apple are either in a transitionary phase (everything to USB-C and 5K screens!), or really have lost the plot. I guess we'll know in a year. MacBook Air: it was nice knowing ye MacBook 2015: Someone took "one port to rule them all" a bit too literally. This one could be good in a few years, the MacBook Air was an underpowered POS from 2008-2012 Mac Mini: Quad core option removed, mainly abandoned. I guess they decided laptops are good enough for "baby's first Mac". iMac: fairly worthless form factor upgrade; it looks exactly the same from the side you will actually look at it from. No updates forthcoming for some reason that only Apple knows. Mac Pro: Abandoned then updated with a lot of fanfare then abandoned again (WTF?) /E I forgot about monitors. Apple went from having a nice selection of decent monitors to having one and now none. It's not like they have forgotten how to make a nice screen, just how to put them in a case with a (whatever plug Apple is using now) cable on it.
20andup 10y ago
The new MacBook pros remind me of Walter Isaacsons bibliography of Steve Jobs. The first thing Jobs did when returning to Apple was cut all the products down to theee core products. In 2016, it seems to be going the other direction again.
thesimon 10y ago
A user on reddit put it like this >Apple used to be focused on making their devices better, now they're just focused on making them even thinner. Think that is really accurate.
- wklauss 10y ago
  Thinner is one aspect of better and obviously not the only one. These machines are also faster, lighter (kinda important in a laptop), have better graphics, larger trackpad, a new screen that is much better, etc, etc, etc... Like all products, they can be improved and compromising decisions had to be made during the design phase, but I find this Medium think piece really lacking in perspective and context.
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    >These machines are also faster... And already a generation behind on the CPU front >lighter (kinda important in a laptop) Great, as long as the trade offs are reasonable (not convinced that they are) >have better graphics Yet still woeful in comparison to similarly priced machines from other vendors and, of course, OSX is a terrible gaming platform >a new screen that is much better Good >etc, etc, etc... What are those exactly? I can't think of anything to fill in the gaps, and we can certainly argue that taking away common interfaces is a bad move and the toolbar is little a gimmick.
    - wklauss 10y ago
      Not a generation behind. Kaby Lake is still not available in the configurations these machines need. And even if they were, speed is comparable since the main improvement in KL is going to be video support. Graphics are not only for gaming. Id say the Radeon cards they choose seem reasonable for the Macbook Pro line, pending further testing. Lots of "etc": Much better sound, larger and more comfortable trackpad, faster memory and SSD, jump to Thunderbolt 3, better microphones... Argue away, I think TouchBar is far from being a gimmick.
powvans 10y ago
Really hits the nail on the head. This product is just confusing. It's not as if there aren't good things about it, but there are so many weird confusing decisions that it's like death by a thousand cuts. It's baffling just to contemplate the number of new cables, dongles, and adapters I'd need to buy. I'd be shocked if it was less than $150 worth of things that add no new value. I had planned to buy a new MBP this year. Based on this update I'll be waiting to see what they come up with next year.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  > see what they come up with next year Apple has a history of removing things (floppy, cd drive, ethernet port, firewire, etc) and not backtracking.
grzm 10y ago
Earlier post with over 280 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817332
tim333 10y ago
>The MacBook Air is dead, which is great news I'm not sure why that is - partly because I've got one and like it. Also I guess now the Air 11" is gone we're supposed to but the 12" Macbook but it doesn't review as well - on the most obvious Amazon reviews the 11" has 81% 5* reviews and the new Macbook had 59%. It seems a shame that thin with few ports and shiny seems to be prioritized over user satisfaction.
Yetanfou 10y ago
I'll give Apple a hint how to solve this conundrum. a) bring back that key row, people prefer physical keys over touch-strips and -pads and -screens for a reason - you can use them without taking your eyes off the screen b) for those applications where you'd benefit from a visual representation of whatever data you're manipulating the keystrip is rather limited in space, but fortunately nearly all laptops already include a touch-sensitive area under the keyboard... c) ...so just put an OLED-display under the touchpad? Have it run iOS for ease of development, not that developing for iOS is easy but there are loads and loads of developers who already know the platform. Add some haptic feedback to make it usable eyes-off and for those who have bad eyesight and you've got your next 'amazing' gadget. As an added bonus it should be possible to use any iOS device as a 'remote' for applications which utilize the touchpad-with-pictures. Call it DisplayPad and you're done for the next show. The same could be done by Google (Android on ChromeOS or whatever comes after), by Microsoft, by... anyone, really.
Razengan 10y ago
I honestly don't see how all this whining is justified, except for the fact that you need dongles to hook up your shiny new iPhone and EarPods to your MacBook. • People wanted Skylake, they got Skylake. • They got faster GPU and I/O and great battery life. The numbers on these are impressive, especially the I/O. • They got 4 ports of the fastest and most versatile interfaces for external devices ever. The removal of all other ports is really no worse than when the VERY FIRST iMAC went USB-only back in 1998! [1][2] We all see how the rest of the industry followed, as it will again when everything becomes USB-C. • The Touch Bar is actually a cool new input device that brings context-sensitive multitouch to macOS without bastardizing the traditional desktop UI as Windows does. You wanted innovation, you got it. What do people expect to happen to laptops at this point anyway?? I don't see any good alternative ideas being offered. • Lastly, and I'm amazed at how this is being overlooked in every discussion: The move to 30-BIT-PER-CHANNEL SCREENS! I have an iPad Pro and the difference that a wide color display brings has to be seen in person to be appreciated. Accurate color representation in consumer devices is a field which has languished for over 20 years. I believe mad props are due Apple for pushing everyone ahead, and up until now I don't think there were any good laptops for actually creating and previewing P3 content, without connecting them to expensive external screens. ---- Now the bad things. I only recently purchased an iPhone 7 and a 9.7" iPad Pro. I love them to bits, especially their wide color cameras and screens, but I won't be able to connect them to an already-expensive new MBP, or use the new Lightning EarPods, without spending even more money on dongles and carrying around extra stuff with me everywhere. Given the prices, I really think Apple should have softened this by at least bundling Lightning-to-USB-C with the new MacBooks. WHY fight within your own ecosystem? The naming is also a disaster. I don't really mind them calling the 9.7" iPad "Pro" (it's an amazing device) but putting out a "MacBook Pro" without a Touch Bar really muddies the waters and only creates confusion. They should've just called it a 13" MacBook, and given it a choice of more colors. These are the areas where they are justifiably deserving of ire, but on the whole I think all this relentless negativity is a bit excessive and feels like the work of competitor-hired PR firms, but I hope it pushes Apple to address the actual issues. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac#History [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy-free_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy-free_PC
- 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

89 points by guruz 10y ago

In The Hard Thing About Hard Things Ben Horowitz says there is two types of really successfull people in the business word: Chaotic visionaries and orderly executioners, called type 1 and type 2. I think Apple is a perfect example for this, with Jobs having been the visionary and Cook the guy who implements these visions. Horowitz stated that a company works only well with the visionary at the top. We can see how true this as Cook just is not creative. I am sure he works really hard and is really smart but he should have never gotten to where he is now. At first I thought he would only be a interim solution to manage Apple while they search for another creative genius but that seems not to be the case.

dahdum 10y ago
I thought Ives was the chaotic visionary now, with Cook the business leader. With such a string of success Ives has had I figure only a flop (imo like this) would give Cook the leverage needed for change.
- dilemma 10y ago
  Ive looks more like an implementer than a visionary to me.
- carlivar 10y ago
  I think it's one of two things: 1) Most of Apple design is now by committee, which is why the Settings in an iPhone are a maze of confusion, especially around iCloud. The iPhone was supposed to be easy to use. Maybe it still is as long as one pays for and trusts iCloud (didn't work out well for Jennifer Lawrence). 2) Ive isn't the the genius we all think he is. I think this is more likely the case. If I remember correctly, Jobs liked the "skeuomorph" design style (design based on the original object) but Ive did not. I do not think it is coincidence that iOS became much more "cartoon" looking after Jobs died. I personally do not like it. But I think it shows that Ive is in complete control. If he is, Ive is to blame why I have to provide tech support for iOS settings to my friends and family now. If you extrapolate this complexity to the rest of Apple, things are way off track from Jobs' vision.
- TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
  I think both Ives and Cook were implementers. Jobs was the chaotic visionary. He would not have let these devices ship with the gaps in the OP. This is what I was hoping would not happen, but figured would.
wklauss 10y ago
He got to where he is now because the visionary put him there. Like all reductionism, Horowitz thesis looks good in a business book, it makes the world simple. Reality is complex and that statement ("a company works only well with the visionary at the top") it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy (the company is doing good. His CEO must be a visionary, then, since he anticipated the needs of the market).

jedanbik 10y ago

We're developers. Let's write new software. Let's build new tools.

bdcravens 10y ago
Let's buy new brands of laptops?

M_Grey 10y ago

Why can’t you plug the Lightning headphones that come in the iPhone box into the new Mac? Why doesn’t the iPhone come with the right cable for the new MacBook Pro? Why doesn’t Apple make a screen that properly works with its own devices? Why did Apple highlight how great the Touch Bar is for Messaging, but didn’t even port most of the new iMessage features to macOS properly? Do I have to carry two pairs of headphones now? How do I charge my Lightning cable mouse? Why remove the HDMI port, a standard that’s still incredibly popular for plugging into TVs? Why remove the SD card, a popular slot for… creatives using cameras? Yikes. I mean... yikes. I hope Apple has some good answers to most of those questions.

d33 10y ago
I don't really believe there are good answers to those.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- LaSombra 10y ago
  Probably the same one as the iPhone headphone jack, courage.
- koder2016 10y ago
  People shouldn't have complained about their software and icon re-design. Now they are trying to distract us with hardware problems!
rangibaby 10y ago
It's sad because when I first switched to Apple (~2008) I was extremely impressed by small things like the iPhone earphone remote 100% working when plugged into a Mac. It was a huge change from PC-land, where getting anything working was a challenge. Apple are either in a transitionary phase (everything to USB-C and 5K screens!), or really have lost the plot. I guess we'll know in a year. MacBook Air: it was nice knowing ye MacBook 2015: Someone took "one port to rule them all" a bit too literally. This one could be good in a few years, the MacBook Air was an underpowered POS from 2008-2012 Mac Mini: Quad core option removed, mainly abandoned. I guess they decided laptops are good enough for "baby's first Mac". iMac: fairly worthless form factor upgrade; it looks exactly the same from the side you will actually look at it from. No updates forthcoming for some reason that only Apple knows. Mac Pro: Abandoned then updated with a lot of fanfare then abandoned again (WTF?) /E I forgot about monitors. Apple went from having a nice selection of decent monitors to having one and now none. It's not like they have forgotten how to make a nice screen, just how to put them in a case with a (whatever plug Apple is using now) cable on it.

20andup 10y ago

The new MacBook pros remind me of Walter Isaacsons bibliography of Steve Jobs. The first thing Jobs did when returning to Apple was cut all the products down to theee core products. In 2016, it seems to be going the other direction again.

thesimon 10y ago

A user on reddit put it like this >Apple used to be focused on making their devices better, now they're just focused on making them even thinner. Think that is really accurate.

wklauss 10y ago
Thinner is one aspect of better and obviously not the only one. These machines are also faster, lighter (kinda important in a laptop), have better graphics, larger trackpad, a new screen that is much better, etc, etc, etc... Like all products, they can be improved and compromising decisions had to be made during the design phase, but I find this Medium think piece really lacking in perspective and context.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  >These machines are also faster... And already a generation behind on the CPU front >lighter (kinda important in a laptop) Great, as long as the trade offs are reasonable (not convinced that they are) >have better graphics Yet still woeful in comparison to similarly priced machines from other vendors and, of course, OSX is a terrible gaming platform >a new screen that is much better Good >etc, etc, etc... What are those exactly? I can't think of anything to fill in the gaps, and we can certainly argue that taking away common interfaces is a bad move and the toolbar is little a gimmick.
  - wklauss 10y ago
    Not a generation behind. Kaby Lake is still not available in the configurations these machines need. And even if they were, speed is comparable since the main improvement in KL is going to be video support. Graphics are not only for gaming. Id say the Radeon cards they choose seem reasonable for the Macbook Pro line, pending further testing. Lots of "etc": Much better sound, larger and more comfortable trackpad, faster memory and SSD, jump to Thunderbolt 3, better microphones... Argue away, I think TouchBar is far from being a gimmick.

powvans 10y ago

Really hits the nail on the head. This product is just confusing. It's not as if there aren't good things about it, but there are so many weird confusing decisions that it's like death by a thousand cuts. It's baffling just to contemplate the number of new cables, dongles, and adapters I'd need to buy. I'd be shocked if it was less than $150 worth of things that add no new value. I had planned to buy a new MBP this year. Based on this update I'll be waiting to see what they come up with next year.

bdcravens 10y ago
> see what they come up with next year Apple has a history of removing things (floppy, cd drive, ethernet port, firewire, etc) and not backtracking.

grzm 10y ago

Earlier post with over 280 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817332

tim333 10y ago

>The MacBook Air is dead, which is great news I'm not sure why that is - partly because I've got one and like it. Also I guess now the Air 11" is gone we're supposed to but the 12" Macbook but it doesn't review as well - on the most obvious Amazon reviews the 11" has 81% 5* reviews and the new Macbook had 59%. It seems a shame that thin with few ports and shiny seems to be prioritized over user satisfaction.

Yetanfou 10y ago

I'll give Apple a hint how to solve this conundrum. a) bring back that key row, people prefer physical keys over touch-strips and -pads and -screens for a reason - you can use them without taking your eyes off the screen b) for those applications where you'd benefit from a visual representation of whatever data you're manipulating the keystrip is rather limited in space, but fortunately nearly all laptops already include a touch-sensitive area under the keyboard... c) ...so just put an OLED-display under the touchpad? Have it run iOS for ease of development, not that developing for iOS is easy but there are loads and loads of developers who already know the platform. Add some haptic feedback to make it usable eyes-off and for those who have bad eyesight and you've got your next 'amazing' gadget. As an added bonus it should be possible to use any iOS device as a 'remote' for applications which utilize the touchpad-with-pictures. Call it DisplayPad and you're done for the next show. The same could be done by Google (Android on ChromeOS or whatever comes after), by Microsoft, by... anyone, really.

Razengan 10y ago

I honestly don't see how all this whining is justified, except for the fact that you need dongles to hook up your shiny new iPhone and EarPods to your MacBook. • People wanted Skylake, they got Skylake. • They got faster GPU and I/O and great battery life. The numbers on these are impressive, especially the I/O. • They got 4 ports of the fastest and most versatile interfaces for external devices ever. The removal of all other ports is really no worse than when the VERY FIRST iMAC went USB-only back in 1998! [1][2] We all see how the rest of the industry followed, as it will again when everything becomes USB-C. • The Touch Bar is actually a cool new input device that brings context-sensitive multitouch to macOS without bastardizing the traditional desktop UI as Windows does. You wanted innovation, you got it. What do people expect to happen to laptops at this point anyway?? I don't see any good alternative ideas being offered. • Lastly, and I'm amazed at how this is being overlooked in every discussion: The move to 30-BIT-PER-CHANNEL SCREENS! I have an iPad Pro and the difference that a wide color display brings has to be seen in person to be appreciated. Accurate color representation in consumer devices is a field which has languished for over 20 years. I believe mad props are due Apple for pushing everyone ahead, and up until now I don't think there were any good laptops for actually creating and previewing P3 content, without connecting them to expensive external screens. ---- Now the bad things. I only recently purchased an iPhone 7 and a 9.7" iPad Pro. I love them to bits, especially their wide color cameras and screens, but I won't be able to connect them to an already-expensive new MBP, or use the new Lightning EarPods, without spending even more money on dongles and carrying around extra stuff with me everywhere. Given the prices, I really think Apple should have softened this by at least bundling Lightning-to-USB-C with the new MacBooks. WHY fight within your own ecosystem? The naming is also a disaster. I don't really mind them calling the 9.7" iPad "Pro" (it's an amazing device) but putting out a "MacBook Pro" without a Touch Bar really muddies the waters and only creates confusion. They should've just called it a 13" MacBook, and given it a choice of more colors. These are the areas where they are justifiably deserving of ire, but on the whole I think all this relentless negativity is a bit excessive and feels like the work of competitor-hired PR firms, but I hope it pushes Apple to address the actual issues. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac#History [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy-free_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy-free_PC

10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]