5 ms·

> After all, what proof will they use to tell a host they are discriminating. Testers. That's partially how the government got evidence to sue Trump in the 197

by gaur 10y ago

> After all, what proof will they use to tell a host they are discriminating. Testers. That's partially how the government got evidence to sue Trump in the 1970s for housing discrimination.

jacquesm 10y ago
That doesn't scale. If Airbnb were to test every host to reliably prove discrimination or not their whole business model would fall apart.
- raesene9 10y ago
  Sure they couldn't reliably prove it, but sample based testing + public consequences for those found to be in breach of ToS (e.g. some form of financial penalty) would likely make people who intended to discriminate less likely to use the AirBnB platform.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Maybe. But the more likely outcome is that people will simply continue to do what they do until they get kicked off and that every wanna-be renter of some Airbnb listed property is going to claim 'discrimination' from now on when they are refused.
    - foldr 10y ago
      >But the more likely outcome is that people will simply continue to do what they do until they get kicked off So, that would be successful enforcement of the policy.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        Yes, if it happens immediately. But most likely they'll be doing it for a long time, possibly years before something will be done about it and more often than not those cases will involve Airbnb getting bad press (which is what gave rise to this whole thing in the first place): http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/20/airbnb-sued-for-allegedly-ignoring-racial-discrimination-on-its-site.html http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/20/airbnb-sued-for-allegedly-ign... Or did you think they came up with this because they thought it was a good idea to tell people who they can invite into their homes?
        foldr 10y ago
        No-one expects this policy to be enforced completely successfully, but no law or rule against discrimination ever is. I see no reason why it could not make a positive difference. As to your final question, why so cynical? I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        > As to your final question, why so cynical? Past and present Airbnb behavior is - to use light terms - less than ethical. > I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. But they only chose to act when it became a matter of negative press. > I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason. They don't have to be 'secretly in favor of it' for them to condone it because it affects their bottom line one way or the other, presumably they've done the math and they now figure that further run-ins with the press and the law would work against them. Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them.
        foldr 10y ago
        > Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them. Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        > Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism. It's cynicism when applied to companies about which you have no datapoints, we have plenty of datapoints about those three mentioned above. Airbnb would have to significantly change their ways before I would be ready to see them as an ethical operator, I've outlined two things they could do to really combat racism, but I'll bet you they will never do this because it would cut into their bottom line. See, being an ethical company always cuts into the bottom line, there is almost always more money to be made by being unethical.
    - raesene9 10y ago
      Well that's a possible outcome of course, another possibility is that people who wish to discriminate realise that AirBnB probably isn't the platform for them and move on to other approaches. Sample auditing and enforcement with financial penalties isn't exactly an unknown approach for policies, so it seems like its a valid possible approach here. without any attempt at enforcement, it would see that the policy would have limited impact. If people get the idea that it might be enforced, they may well be more inclined to take it seriously.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      A careful reading of your phrasing suggests that you're saying that the only people who are refused service from an Airbnb host are also in the category of people whom discrimination laws protect.
      - hunter2_ 10y ago
        The categories that discrimination laws protect do include all people. The race category includes anyone with a race, the gender category includes everyone with a gender, etc. The protected categories are not the minorities. A guest can claim "the host seems to not like men" when both the host and the guest are men, and discrimination laws are invoked. It sounds silly in this context, but in a hiring context where a male manager prefers a female for an open position, a male applicant is being discriminated against.
chillydawg 10y ago
It's pretty easy. Airbnb have all the data they need. Infer the race/gender/sexuality of each guest using standard techniques and then look at relative acceptance/decline rates among hosts for those groups you wish to measure discrimination for. It's a few days work with a db/excel/python.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  Airbnb doesn't ask race. And quite alot of people come as 2nd guest so I have zero idea what even their name is. Not to mention, as a black airbnb host, minority guests were pretty rare. Had a few Asians and one black guy.
- red_admiral 10y ago
  > Infer the race/gender/sexuality of each guest using standard techniques I'm curious what the techniques are, especially with regards to sexuality? Or do you mean ask everyone when setting up their profile?

by gaur 10y ago

> After all, what proof will they use to tell a host they are discriminating. Testers. That's partially how the government got evidence to sue Trump in the 1970s for housing discrimination.

jacquesm 10y ago

That doesn't scale. If Airbnb were to test every host to reliably prove discrimination or not their whole business model would fall apart.

raesene9 10y ago
Sure they couldn't reliably prove it, but sample based testing + public consequences for those found to be in breach of ToS (e.g. some form of financial penalty) would likely make people who intended to discriminate less likely to use the AirBnB platform.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Maybe. But the more likely outcome is that people will simply continue to do what they do until they get kicked off and that every wanna-be renter of some Airbnb listed property is going to claim 'discrimination' from now on when they are refused.
  - foldr 10y ago
    >But the more likely outcome is that people will simply continue to do what they do until they get kicked off So, that would be successful enforcement of the policy.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Yes, if it happens immediately. But most likely they'll be doing it for a long time, possibly years before something will be done about it and more often than not those cases will involve Airbnb getting bad press (which is what gave rise to this whole thing in the first place): http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/20/airbnb-sued-for-allegedly-ignoring-racial-discrimination-on-its-site.html http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/20/airbnb-sued-for-allegedly-ign... Or did you think they came up with this because they thought it was a good idea to tell people who they can invite into their homes?
      - foldr 10y ago
        No-one expects this policy to be enforced completely successfully, but no law or rule against discrimination ever is. I see no reason why it could not make a positive difference. As to your final question, why so cynical? I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        > As to your final question, why so cynical? Past and present Airbnb behavior is - to use light terms - less than ethical. > I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. But they only chose to act when it became a matter of negative press. > I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason. They don't have to be 'secretly in favor of it' for them to condone it because it affects their bottom line one way or the other, presumably they've done the math and they now figure that further run-ins with the press and the law would work against them. Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them.
        foldr 10y ago
        > Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them. Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        > Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism. It's cynicism when applied to companies about which you have no datapoints, we have plenty of datapoints about those three mentioned above. Airbnb would have to significantly change their ways before I would be ready to see them as an ethical operator, I've outlined two things they could do to really combat racism, but I'll bet you they will never do this because it would cut into their bottom line. See, being an ethical company always cuts into the bottom line, there is almost always more money to be made by being unethical.
  - raesene9 10y ago
    Well that's a possible outcome of course, another possibility is that people who wish to discriminate realise that AirBnB probably isn't the platform for them and move on to other approaches. Sample auditing and enforcement with financial penalties isn't exactly an unknown approach for policies, so it seems like its a valid possible approach here. without any attempt at enforcement, it would see that the policy would have limited impact. If people get the idea that it might be enforced, they may well be more inclined to take it seriously.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    A careful reading of your phrasing suggests that you're saying that the only people who are refused service from an Airbnb host are also in the category of people whom discrimination laws protect.
    - hunter2_ 10y ago
      The categories that discrimination laws protect do include all people. The race category includes anyone with a race, the gender category includes everyone with a gender, etc. The protected categories are not the minorities. A guest can claim "the host seems to not like men" when both the host and the guest are men, and discrimination laws are invoked. It sounds silly in this context, but in a hiring context where a male manager prefers a female for an open position, a male applicant is being discriminated against.

chillydawg 10y ago

It's pretty easy. Airbnb have all the data they need. Infer the race/gender/sexuality of each guest using standard techniques and then look at relative acceptance/decline rates among hosts for those groups you wish to measure discrimination for. It's a few days work with a db/excel/python.

ryuker16 10y ago
Airbnb doesn't ask race. And quite alot of people come as 2nd guest so I have zero idea what even their name is. Not to mention, as a black airbnb host, minority guests were pretty rare. Had a few Asians and one black guy.
red_admiral 10y ago
> Infer the race/gender/sexuality of each guest using standard techniques I'm curious what the techniques are, especially with regards to sexuality? Or do you mean ask everyone when setting up their profile?