4 ms·

A traitor is someone who committed treason. In the US, treason is defined in the Constitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Three_of_the_United_States_C

by Sukotto 17y ago

A traitor is someone who committed treason. In the US, treason is defined in the Constitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Three_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_3:_Treason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Three_of_the_United_Sta... So "traitor" doesn't hold up. But since he pledged allegiance to the US, and then renounced the country they can certainly call him an oathbreaker, liar, false witness, or perjurer. Not that I care personally. I'd do it myself if I were in his position.

ahoyhere 17y ago
If you are born a US citizen, you don't have to pledge anything to stay a US citizen. It's a birthright. You don't have to pledge anything to get a passport. So you can't call him an oathbreaker, liar, false witness, or perjurer. He's just a man who gave up his citizenship because it was undesirable.
- Sukotto 17y ago
  You only have to speak an oath once for it to be morally binding. The guy went out and got citizenship in another country and renounced the US. Did he ever pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States (and the Republic)? If so, then I consider that a broken promise.
  - Rod 17y ago
    Since when are the citizens property of the state?
    - Sukotto 17y ago
      I never claimed that they are. From the upvotes on your comment and the downvotes on mine it's clear that you're not the only one who mistakenly thinks I did.
      - Rod 17y ago
        Pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States is more of a ritual than anything else. Unless you're in the Military, it means very little. If a U.S. citizen can't break the umbilical cord with Uncle Sam, then he's not free at all. The so-called Land of the Free has been converging to Authoritarianism for a while. It's really quite worrying that the few people brave enough to break-away are labeled as traitors.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        If that oath is so 'binding' on first saying how come people are asked to repeat it all the time? Oaths to flags and countries are pretty meaningless, unless taken by an adult that has a viable option to pledge allegiance to some other entity (say in immigrant). What if every country should ask for a pledge of allegiance from its citizens, would that mean that any immigrants are to be refused on the grounds that they're oath breakers? If the Netherlands (where I was born) would ask me to pledge allegiance I'd hand in my passport instantly because I think that is not something a country should ask of its citizens. Especially not a country that has 'freedom' high in it's list of standards. It's more of a symbolic device than a pledge that you can hold people to or call them an oathbreaker if they don't. Most kids don't even realize the meaning of all those words, just say them to avoid being an outsider. Get them while they're young...
        ahoyhere 17y ago
        As a rule, Americans have no idea how much they are indoctrinated. I tell my European friends about how I know 3 different songs about the flag, and 3-5 additional songs about how awesome America is, and were made to sing them in school, and they are aghast. When I tell them about the mandatory daily Pledge of Allegiance, and that book by Avi about the "rogue" kid who refuses to say it (based on true stories), they about shit their pants. Then I tell them about Cuba, and they die. Land of the Free, my ass!
  - fexl 17y ago
    Any decent common law contract should include termination conditions, allowing the participants to escape eternal liability.
bediger 17y ago
I "pledged allegiance" thousands of times from about age 5 on. Until about age 13 I didn't even think about, pledging allegiance constituted a ritual at the start of a day of school, which was pretty ritualistic in and of itself. Even after I started to think about not saying the "Pledge of Allegiance" I decided that the cost was too high, by observing the Jehovah's Witness in the classroom who didn't say it. I think that after saying the pledge became a habit, it became a matter of saying it under duress. And the school authorities cooperated in promoting this. So, I personally regard that pledge as voided by the semi-official duress placed on my as a child by school authorities.
alain94040 17y ago
Can someone help me with this apparent contradiction: "pledging allegiance" is pretty much the oppostise of "being free". How do you reconcile the two? Really, the textbook definition of being free is that you have no allegiance.

by Sukotto 17y ago

ahoyhere 17y ago

If you are born a US citizen, you don't have to pledge anything to stay a US citizen. It's a birthright. You don't have to pledge anything to get a passport. So you can't call him an oathbreaker, liar, false witness, or perjurer. He's just a man who gave up his citizenship because it was undesirable.

Sukotto 17y ago
You only have to speak an oath once for it to be morally binding. The guy went out and got citizenship in another country and renounced the US. Did he ever pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States (and the Republic)? If so, then I consider that a broken promise.
- Rod 17y ago
  Since when are the citizens property of the state?
  - Sukotto 17y ago
    I never claimed that they are. From the upvotes on your comment and the downvotes on mine it's clear that you're not the only one who mistakenly thinks I did.
    - Rod 17y ago
      Pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States is more of a ritual than anything else. Unless you're in the Military, it means very little. If a U.S. citizen can't break the umbilical cord with Uncle Sam, then he's not free at all. The so-called Land of the Free has been converging to Authoritarianism for a while. It's really quite worrying that the few people brave enough to break-away are labeled as traitors.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      If that oath is so 'binding' on first saying how come people are asked to repeat it all the time? Oaths to flags and countries are pretty meaningless, unless taken by an adult that has a viable option to pledge allegiance to some other entity (say in immigrant). What if every country should ask for a pledge of allegiance from its citizens, would that mean that any immigrants are to be refused on the grounds that they're oath breakers? If the Netherlands (where I was born) would ask me to pledge allegiance I'd hand in my passport instantly because I think that is not something a country should ask of its citizens. Especially not a country that has 'freedom' high in it's list of standards. It's more of a symbolic device than a pledge that you can hold people to or call them an oathbreaker if they don't. Most kids don't even realize the meaning of all those words, just say them to avoid being an outsider. Get them while they're young...
      - ahoyhere 17y ago
        As a rule, Americans have no idea how much they are indoctrinated. I tell my European friends about how I know 3 different songs about the flag, and 3-5 additional songs about how awesome America is, and were made to sing them in school, and they are aghast. When I tell them about the mandatory daily Pledge of Allegiance, and that book by Avi about the "rogue" kid who refuses to say it (based on true stories), they about shit their pants. Then I tell them about Cuba, and they die. Land of the Free, my ass!
- fexl 17y ago
  Any decent common law contract should include termination conditions, allowing the participants to escape eternal liability.

bediger 17y ago

I "pledged allegiance" thousands of times from about age 5 on. Until about age 13 I didn't even think about, pledging allegiance constituted a ritual at the start of a day of school, which was pretty ritualistic in and of itself. Even after I started to think about not saying the "Pledge of Allegiance" I decided that the cost was too high, by observing the Jehovah's Witness in the classroom who didn't say it. I think that after saying the pledge became a habit, it became a matter of saying it under duress. And the school authorities cooperated in promoting this. So, I personally regard that pledge as voided by the semi-official duress placed on my as a child by school authorities.

alain94040 17y ago

Can someone help me with this apparent contradiction: "pledging allegiance" is pretty much the oppostise of "being free". How do you reconcile the two? Really, the textbook definition of being free is that you have no allegiance.