4 ms·

The fine is punative. Noncompliance is often not acceptable when it comes to safety and environmental regulations. When I worked in plants, you can bet there we

The fine is punative. Noncompliance is often not acceptable when it comes to safety and environmental regulations. When I worked in plants, you can bet there were only two groups that would put the fear of God in operations: OSHA and the local environmental regulations agency. Fines could be thousands per hour (or per infraction, which could be collected hourly). Even if it's unreasonable (and for damn sure it can be - Argon metering was my personal worst hated), you better comply until you successfully sue or negotiate it down. And it is likely necessary. Meeting regulations is far harder and more expensive than just the feel good that you met the reqs. If there wasn't a stick held up as a credible threat, plants would just trash everything. Not because they're evil, but because plants simply can't care - they aren't people. Thusly these agencies are impersonal and brutal in kind.

david-given 10y ago
Not to dispute your point, which I agree with, but --- argon metering? How can that be a safety or environmental hazard? You don't want to lose it overboard because it's expensive, but it's a noble gas, so it should be inert, right? What am I missing?
- DanBC 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation It can displace air, causing death. Here's one example of a death, although here they deliberately put the argon in there: http://maritimeaccident.org/2014/08/safespace-argoninert-gas-fatality/ http://maritimeaccident.org/2014/08/safespace-argoninert-gas...
  - david-given 10y ago
    True, but so can nitrogen, propane, neon, carbon dioxide, hydrogen and flourine (although you'd need to be pretty unlucky to survive long enough breathing flourine to asphyxiate). I know argon is denser than air at STP, and so tends to accumulate in enclosed spaces --- but propane is even denser. (Leading cause of catastrophic accident in yachts: gas explosion. It's not like you can have a hole in the bottom to let the gas out in the event of a leak.) And any plant which deals with liquid gasses is going to prioritise ventilation anyway, which should easily deal with any gas buildup. The parent sounded like there was something specific to do with argon which made the regulators tetchy, and I wouldn't have thought that asphyxiation risk would be enough. Am I wrong?
    - eridius 10y ago
      Propane has a very strong odor added to it (by the propane manufacturers), which means it'll be pretty damn obvious the moment you enter a propane-rich environment.

david-given 10y ago

Not to dispute your point, which I agree with, but --- argon metering? How can that be a safety or environmental hazard? You don't want to lose it overboard because it's expensive, but it's a noble gas, so it should be inert, right? What am I missing?

DanBC 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation It can displace air, causing death. Here's one example of a death, although here they deliberately put the argon in there: http://maritimeaccident.org/2014/08/safespace-argoninert-gas-fatality/ http://maritimeaccident.org/2014/08/safespace-argoninert-gas...
- david-given 10y ago
  True, but so can nitrogen, propane, neon, carbon dioxide, hydrogen and flourine (although you'd need to be pretty unlucky to survive long enough breathing flourine to asphyxiate). I know argon is denser than air at STP, and so tends to accumulate in enclosed spaces --- but propane is even denser. (Leading cause of catastrophic accident in yachts: gas explosion. It's not like you can have a hole in the bottom to let the gas out in the event of a leak.) And any plant which deals with liquid gasses is going to prioritise ventilation anyway, which should easily deal with any gas buildup. The parent sounded like there was something specific to do with argon which made the regulators tetchy, and I wouldn't have thought that asphyxiation risk would be enough. Am I wrong?
  - eridius 10y ago
    Propane has a very strong odor added to it (by the propane manufacturers), which means it'll be pretty damn obvious the moment you enter a propane-rich environment.