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I can probably give some color to this. Wall Street banks used to be a very good spot for programmers due to: - big pay, this was often enough to not need mor

I can probably give some color to this. Wall Street banks used to be a very good spot for programmers due to: - big pay, this was often enough to not need more benefits - what you often got to work on was very interesting - hours worked tended to be no where near what they were in the hedge fund or startup scene. They also leaned heavily on credentialism for hiring signals, mostly through where you went to school and secondarily by where you worked before. Banks have found over the past 10 years that they are no longer a top choice for the best STEM students any more due to a number of factors and hence they have to move down the food chain. Specifically: - shrinking size of most of these banks due to decreased profits for the sell side firms - shrinking pay due above. - The tech scene and buy side, hedge funds, offer better pay, more interesting work, and much better career upside(moving up in the sell side anymore is cut throat due to shrinking head counts and bonuses). I know next to nothing of hackerrank but anything that helps opens up the hiring pipeline is a good idea. As to pay being partially based on bonuses. I mean this isn't going away, and if you don't like it, then you probably won't work in finance at all. Its analogous to startups. You may still get a great base salary, but options will always be a decent portion of your salary. If you really want to get angry at bonuses. I've had recruiters tell me that many hedge funds have a cut off of $500,000/year bonus for looking for programmers, ie they won't interview programmers who haven't had a bonus of more than $500,000 in a year as they feel it provides one of the better hiring signals. You'd think this would stop them from hiring but there are alot of programmers in the HFT scene who easily pass this bar.

FT_intern 10y ago
how were banks viewed compared to MSFT/Oracle/Sun back in the late 1990s and early 2000s?
pavlov 10y ago
I've had recruiters tell me that many hedge funds have a cut off of $500,000/year bonus for looking for programmers, ie they won't interview programmers who haven't had a bonus of more than $500,000 in a year as they feel it provides one of the better hiring signals. Sounds as ridiculous as Hollywood casting. Seems like this would create a "Moneyball"-style opportunity for a hedge fund to actually invest in tech management, hire more objectively, and build a development team that's composed of talent that works well together rather than a random cast of prima donnas who won't get out bed for less than $1MM.
- chollida1 10y ago
  Agreed. But to be fair, its based on two things: 1) No one just gives money away, especially to the programmers over the "traders". So if a programmer gets $500,000 you can be fairly certain more than a few people really think the programmer is worth it. 2) It's the people version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM". Someone else has already vouched for this person, based on the compensation they gave the programmer. So if he/she turns out to be a bad hire, hey, not our fault, Citadel thought they were worth it.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "than a random cast of prima donnas who won't get out bed for less than $1MM." I mean, if I've already gotten that, why would I want to go to your company for less?
  - vehementi 10y ago
    Because Moneyball would correct the $ that is being offered to you anywhere Also it's more about using better techniques to identify talent
snickerbockers 10y ago
Banks refuse to hire people on the basis that they don't charge enough? Sounds like bad logic coming from a financial institution.
- vostok 10y ago
  This is not about banks.
- user5994461 10y ago
  It's good logic to poach good people in the industry who already got a job. It's bad logic to accept and grow people from other industries. Corollary: Other companies refuse to hire people on the basis that they charge too much.
technofiend 10y ago
Did you mean haven't had a bonus of less than 500k/yr?
- Buge 10y ago
  No, I'm pretty sure chollida1 means more. They only hire people who have made a ton of money at some point, because they think that means the person is valuable.
vostok 10y ago
Basically what happened is that tech companies started paying similar or higher amounts than finance.
mailshanx 10y ago
What are some places (except Citadel / Tower / Two Sigma) where one can make half a million in bonus? How does one land and prepare for an interview for such positions? Also, do you think any of these places might be open to hire a hybrid programmer-quant i.e. someone who isn't as good at math / programming as a typical quant/dev, but is good at connecting the two and working in the middle?

FT_intern 10y ago

how were banks viewed compared to MSFT/Oracle/Sun back in the late 1990s and early 2000s?

pavlov 10y ago

I've had recruiters tell me that many hedge funds have a cut off of $500,000/year bonus for looking for programmers, ie they won't interview programmers who haven't had a bonus of more than $500,000 in a year as they feel it provides one of the better hiring signals. Sounds as ridiculous as Hollywood casting. Seems like this would create a "Moneyball"-style opportunity for a hedge fund to actually invest in tech management, hire more objectively, and build a development team that's composed of talent that works well together rather than a random cast of prima donnas who won't get out bed for less than $1MM.

chollida1 10y ago
Agreed. But to be fair, its based on two things: 1) No one just gives money away, especially to the programmers over the "traders". So if a programmer gets $500,000 you can be fairly certain more than a few people really think the programmer is worth it. 2) It's the people version of "No one ever got fired for buying IBM". Someone else has already vouched for this person, based on the compensation they gave the programmer. So if he/she turns out to be a bad hire, hey, not our fault, Citadel thought they were worth it.
st3v3r 10y ago
"than a random cast of prima donnas who won't get out bed for less than $1MM." I mean, if I've already gotten that, why would I want to go to your company for less?
- vehementi 10y ago
  Because Moneyball would correct the $ that is being offered to you anywhere Also it's more about using better techniques to identify talent

snickerbockers 10y ago

Banks refuse to hire people on the basis that they don't charge enough? Sounds like bad logic coming from a financial institution.

vostok 10y ago
This is not about banks.
user5994461 10y ago
It's good logic to poach good people in the industry who already got a job. It's bad logic to accept and grow people from other industries. Corollary: Other companies refuse to hire people on the basis that they charge too much.

technofiend 10y ago

Did you mean haven't had a bonus of less than 500k/yr?

Buge 10y ago
No, I'm pretty sure chollida1 means more. They only hire people who have made a ton of money at some point, because they think that means the person is valuable.

vostok 10y ago

Basically what happened is that tech companies started paying similar or higher amounts than finance.

mailshanx 10y ago

What are some places (except Citadel / Tower / Two Sigma) where one can make half a million in bonus? How does one land and prepare for an interview for such positions? Also, do you think any of these places might be open to hire a hybrid programmer-quant i.e. someone who isn't as good at math / programming as a typical quant/dev, but is good at connecting the two and working in the middle?