6 ms·

Swiss rail operator to sell bitcoins at its ticket machines

139 points by huhtenberg 10y ago

rmoriz 10y ago
It is not possible to buy/pay something at SBB with bitcoins and a customer needs to provide a mobile phone number/personal ID and is also limited to buy 5000 CHF per year due to anti money laundering rules. Further information: http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-services/bitcoin.html http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-servi... IMHO It's (just) a proof of concept of SBB to launch selling complex 3rd party products (think: platform services) using their ticket machines, not so much about Bitcoin.
- skrebbel 10y ago
  Wouldn't there be easier things to sell then instead of bitcoin? Like iTunes credit or pre-paid phone codes? There has to be a reason beyond "look we're a generalized automated point of sale!" to choose bitcoin?
  - ar0 10y ago
    The SBB Ticket machines already sell pre-paid phone top-ups and Paysafecards (cards that can be used for payment in some online shops). So this is really just adding another vendor (SweePay) to this platform.
  - jb613 10y ago
    I suspect that selling iTunes credit or pre-paid phone codes requires adhering to all kinds of rules and agreements set by the corporations (Apple, phone corps). You can't simply build a box and slap iTunes logo on the outside - there's Trademarks involved. Then there's the government regulations and taxes to comply with. Contrast that with bitcoin - no corporations to deal with, no government rules&regulations and paperwork - all you really need is an Internet connection and and simple digital signatures. So no - I don't think iTunes or pre-paid phone codes are easier to sell than bitcoin.
cloudjacker 10y ago
"To test Switzerland appetite for bitcoin" It will more likely test the appetite for a poor user experience, high spreads and fees and be a conclusion that people don't have much appetite for cryptocurrency
- atemerev 10y ago
  I'd say it fits closely to Swiss values. On international level, bank secrecy is less a thing than it was in the past, but nationally, for Swiss citizens, nobody can know the details of one's bank account. Even the Swiss tax authorities. Also, you can buy and sell gold bars anonymously here (I did it once with 100g bar in my bank — no questions were asked and no papers needed). So, why not Bitcoin.
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    yeah you are talking about the concept of bitcoin, I am talking about the concept of putting bitcoin in an antiquated vending machine for buying train tickets (has any one of those EVER impressed you?), one which has a 500 franc daily limit for buying bitcoin (5000 franc yearly limit), and using it to gauge people's interest in bitcoin on a national level this is an "OOPS" almost as big as when your company spends two hours thinking of a hashtag that nobody will ever use.
    - tribaal 10y ago
      > in an antiquated vending machine for buying train tickets (has any one of those EVER impressed you?) I don't know if you've ever used one but the Swiss ticket machines are nowhere near antiquated. They are all touch screen devices that support contactless payements as well as all the usual payment options and then some (reka cheques?), and offer a (relatively) good UI in at least 4 different languages. I'd add that the rest of their IT-enabled infrastructure is really good - apps that let you buy electronic tickets for all major mobile plaforms, RFID-enabled travel passes, and up-to-the minute train live tracking. Compared to every other country I've travelled to they are really advanced. Granted, I've not been to Japan or Singapore, but I've otherwise travelled quite a lot. Source: Am Swiss.
sschueller 10y ago
Just some more info: These machines are everywhere. Here is an image: http://www.toponline.ch/uploads/pics/sbb_automaten_neu2.jpg http://www.toponline.ch/uploads/pics/sbb_automaten_neu2.jpg Daily limit appears to be CHF 500.- which is around USD 500.- SBB Info Page: http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-services/bitcoin.html http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-servi... There are already a few Bitcoin ATMs that don't require any ID. https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/bitcoin-atm-network/ https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/bitcoin-atm-network/
- jb613 10y ago
  If not ID is required then why (and how do they enforce): "The maximum for unregistered clients is 5'000 CHF/EUR per day" https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/explanation/#p1_4 https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/explanation/#p1_4
  - mrb 10y ago
    If it's anywhere like in the US, then some of those operators who don't check for ID simply choose to not enforce the limits.
    - davidgay 10y ago
      SBB/CFF/FFS is the government-owned national railway company, not some mysterious fly-by-night operation.
ianpurton 10y ago
I'm a Bitcoin fan boy but this sounds crazy.
- gnode 10y ago
  Can you explain why it sounds crazy to you?
kylebenzle 10y ago
Can't believe we are going on almost 10 years with bitcoin and we are just now getting the public on board.
- JBReefer 10y ago
  I'll take basically any USD-denominated bet that says Bitcoin will never be more than 5% of real-world transactions by volume in any country in the world.
  - snovv_crash 10y ago
    Well considering that the blockchain can't support the transaction rate, I'd say you're taking a very safe bet there.
    - mrb 10y ago
      Can't support now doesn't mean it never will. You make the typical mistake of looking at current problems and failing to envision solutions. Like people considered early 19th century automobiles ("This will never work! These machines are too noisy. They keep breaking. Roads are not smooth enough. There are no convenient gas stations."). Humans are good at finding solutions to technical problems. It was already demonstrated a quad core CPU and 8Mbit/s of bandwidth are already sufficient to support scaling to at least 2000 tps. The problem is people don't agree how to allow this to happen (Lightning network, or block size increase, etc). But that too will eventually be resolved :)
  - jb613 10y ago
    The reason you will lose that bet is the "any country". In some less developed countries, inflation is out of control (govt sees money printing as the only solution) bitcoin as measured against their currency is rising. Daily. Couple that with the fact that those same places do ironically have high mobile phone usage, and it's only a matter of time until it's surpassed 5%.
    - JBReefer 10y ago
KKKKkkkk1 10y ago
Maybe let's start with selling USD at a reasonable commission, and then move on to the more advanced stuff.
- usrusr 10y ago
  I suspect that those machines lack a sufficiently advanced printer without a hardware upgrade.
wh0rth 10y ago
This is a proof of concept to be sure. But I worry that the UX of the whole thing will get in the way of what's truly valuable about Bitcoin
camiller 10y ago
That will certainly make it easier for average folks to comply with ransom-ware demands.
- mywittyname 10y ago
  Hopefully the payment processor institutes some form of check or delay into the process so that funds can be refunded in the event of fraud.
mrb 10y ago
Speaking of Bitcoin, looks like we are at the early stage of yet another bubble. Up +200% in the last year. Up +25% in the last 2 months.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  Exchange rate aside, due to the greater abundance of bitcoins since the last bubble, the market cap is actually near all time highs.
tribaal 10y ago
The Swiss railways is kind of used to non-fiat money already - they already (co-)print and maintain their own alternative: the reka cheques http://www.reka.ch/en/rekamoney/privatepersons/reka-checks/Seiten/reka-checks.aspx http://www.reka.ch/en/rekamoney/privatepersons/reka-checks/S... There machines all already accept Swiss cash, euros, reka, and all modern electronic payment forms. Adding bitcoin exchange possibilities doesn't seem like such a stretch (it's a software-only change).
- md_ 10y ago
  Huh? Reka is fiat. It's just that the fiat is Reka's, not that of the SNB. ;)
anentropic 10y ago
Why?
droopyEyelids 10y ago
This will be a dangerous egress point for scams attacking the elderly. Right now scammers seem to be defaulting to annoying but fungible instruments like iTunes gift cards. It's going to be a lot worse when they can direct grandma to go to the train station and turn her pension into Bitcoin
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  ransomware has been using bitcoin for the last 3 years
mywittyname 10y ago
But you can't buy tickets (or anything else here) with BC? Buying them has never really been the issue, it's actually using them for something that's difficult.

139 points by huhtenberg 10y ago

It is not possible to buy/pay something at SBB with bitcoins and a customer needs to provide a mobile phone number/personal ID and is also limited to buy 5000 CHF per year due to anti money laundering rules. Further information: http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-services/bitcoin.html http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-servi... IMHO It's (just) a proof of concept of SBB to launch selling complex 3rd party products (think: platform services) using their ticket machines, not so much about Bitcoin.

skrebbel 10y ago
Wouldn't there be easier things to sell then instead of bitcoin? Like iTunes credit or pre-paid phone codes? There has to be a reason beyond "look we're a generalized automated point of sale!" to choose bitcoin?
- ar0 10y ago
  The SBB Ticket machines already sell pre-paid phone top-ups and Paysafecards (cards that can be used for payment in some online shops). So this is really just adding another vendor (SweePay) to this platform.
- jb613 10y ago
  I suspect that selling iTunes credit or pre-paid phone codes requires adhering to all kinds of rules and agreements set by the corporations (Apple, phone corps). You can't simply build a box and slap iTunes logo on the outside - there's Trademarks involved. Then there's the government regulations and taxes to comply with. Contrast that with bitcoin - no corporations to deal with, no government rules&regulations and paperwork - all you really need is an Internet connection and and simple digital signatures. So no - I don't think iTunes or pre-paid phone codes are easier to sell than bitcoin.

cloudjacker 10y ago

"To test Switzerland appetite for bitcoin" It will more likely test the appetite for a poor user experience, high spreads and fees and be a conclusion that people don't have much appetite for cryptocurrency

atemerev 10y ago
I'd say it fits closely to Swiss values. On international level, bank secrecy is less a thing than it was in the past, but nationally, for Swiss citizens, nobody can know the details of one's bank account. Even the Swiss tax authorities. Also, you can buy and sell gold bars anonymously here (I did it once with 100g bar in my bank — no questions were asked and no papers needed). So, why not Bitcoin.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  yeah you are talking about the concept of bitcoin, I am talking about the concept of putting bitcoin in an antiquated vending machine for buying train tickets (has any one of those EVER impressed you?), one which has a 500 franc daily limit for buying bitcoin (5000 franc yearly limit), and using it to gauge people's interest in bitcoin on a national level this is an "OOPS" almost as big as when your company spends two hours thinking of a hashtag that nobody will ever use.
  - tribaal 10y ago
    > in an antiquated vending machine for buying train tickets (has any one of those EVER impressed you?) I don't know if you've ever used one but the Swiss ticket machines are nowhere near antiquated. They are all touch screen devices that support contactless payements as well as all the usual payment options and then some (reka cheques?), and offer a (relatively) good UI in at least 4 different languages. I'd add that the rest of their IT-enabled infrastructure is really good - apps that let you buy electronic tickets for all major mobile plaforms, RFID-enabled travel passes, and up-to-the minute train live tracking. Compared to every other country I've travelled to they are really advanced. Granted, I've not been to Japan or Singapore, but I've otherwise travelled quite a lot. Source: Am Swiss.

sschueller 10y ago

Just some more info: These machines are everywhere. Here is an image: http://www.toponline.ch/uploads/pics/sbb_automaten_neu2.jpg http://www.toponline.ch/uploads/pics/sbb_automaten_neu2.jpg Daily limit appears to be CHF 500.- which is around USD 500.- SBB Info Page: http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-services/bitcoin.html http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/further-servi... There are already a few Bitcoin ATMs that don't require any ID. https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/bitcoin-atm-network/ https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/bitcoin-atm-network/

jb613 10y ago
If not ID is required then why (and how do they enforce): "The maximum for unregistered clients is 5'000 CHF/EUR per day" https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/explanation/#p1_4 https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/en/explanation/#p1_4
- mrb 10y ago
  If it's anywhere like in the US, then some of those operators who don't check for ID simply choose to not enforce the limits.
  - davidgay 10y ago
    SBB/CFF/FFS is the government-owned national railway company, not some mysterious fly-by-night operation.

ianpurton 10y ago

I'm a Bitcoin fan boy but this sounds crazy.

gnode 10y ago
Can you explain why it sounds crazy to you?

kylebenzle 10y ago

Can't believe we are going on almost 10 years with bitcoin and we are just now getting the public on board.

JBReefer 10y ago
I'll take basically any USD-denominated bet that says Bitcoin will never be more than 5% of real-world transactions by volume in any country in the world.
- snovv_crash 10y ago
  Well considering that the blockchain can't support the transaction rate, I'd say you're taking a very safe bet there.
  - mrb 10y ago
    Can't support now doesn't mean it never will. You make the typical mistake of looking at current problems and failing to envision solutions. Like people considered early 19th century automobiles ("This will never work! These machines are too noisy. They keep breaking. Roads are not smooth enough. There are no convenient gas stations."). Humans are good at finding solutions to technical problems. It was already demonstrated a quad core CPU and 8Mbit/s of bandwidth are already sufficient to support scaling to at least 2000 tps. The problem is people don't agree how to allow this to happen (Lightning network, or block size increase, etc). But that too will eventually be resolved :)
- jb613 10y ago
  The reason you will lose that bet is the "any country". In some less developed countries, inflation is out of control (govt sees money printing as the only solution) bitcoin as measured against their currency is rising. Daily. Couple that with the fact that those same places do ironically have high mobile phone usage, and it's only a matter of time until it's surpassed 5%.
  - JBReefer 10y ago

KKKKkkkk1 10y ago

Maybe let's start with selling USD at a reasonable commission, and then move on to the more advanced stuff.

usrusr 10y ago
I suspect that those machines lack a sufficiently advanced printer without a hardware upgrade.

wh0rth 10y ago

This is a proof of concept to be sure. But I worry that the UX of the whole thing will get in the way of what's truly valuable about Bitcoin

camiller 10y ago

That will certainly make it easier for average folks to comply with ransom-ware demands.

mywittyname 10y ago
Hopefully the payment processor institutes some form of check or delay into the process so that funds can be refunded in the event of fraud.

mrb 10y ago

Speaking of Bitcoin, looks like we are at the early stage of yet another bubble. Up +200% in the last year. Up +25% in the last 2 months.

cloudjacker 10y ago
Exchange rate aside, due to the greater abundance of bitcoins since the last bubble, the market cap is actually near all time highs.

tribaal 10y ago

The Swiss railways is kind of used to non-fiat money already - they already (co-)print and maintain their own alternative: the reka cheques http://www.reka.ch/en/rekamoney/privatepersons/reka-checks/Seiten/reka-checks.aspx http://www.reka.ch/en/rekamoney/privatepersons/reka-checks/S... There machines all already accept Swiss cash, euros, reka, and all modern electronic payment forms. Adding bitcoin exchange possibilities doesn't seem like such a stretch (it's a software-only change).

md_ 10y ago
Huh? Reka is fiat. It's just that the fiat is Reka's, not that of the SNB. ;)

anentropic 10y ago

Why?

droopyEyelids 10y ago

This will be a dangerous egress point for scams attacking the elderly. Right now scammers seem to be defaulting to annoying but fungible instruments like iTunes gift cards. It's going to be a lot worse when they can direct grandma to go to the train station and turn her pension into Bitcoin

cloudjacker 10y ago
ransomware has been using bitcoin for the last 3 years

mywittyname 10y ago

But you can't buy tickets (or anything else here) with BC? Buying them has never really been the issue, it's actually using them for something that's difficult.