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Uber basically has little choice but to exit the UK if their efforts to keep it all on a contractual basis fails. This is similar to the Walmart vs Unions situa
by huhtenberg 10y ago
Uber basically has little choice but to exit the UK if their efforts to keep it all on a contractual basis fails. This is similar to the Walmart vs Unions situation, I'm just curious how willing Uber is to make an example out of UK.
- tomgp 10y agoI think this is a strange way of looking at it. This is the British legal system making an example of Uber; asserting that existing laws apply even if you manage your workforce via an app.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- anexprogrammer 10y agoIt's not even that, Uber were just first to get a verdict. There's quite a few "fake self-employment" cases going through the system at the moment. Hermes and Deliveroo for certain, and I think Yodel too.
- huhtenberg 10y agoBut by the same logic a website that helps matching graphic designers with prospective clients should be considered said designers' employer? This makes no sense.
- ascorbic 10y agoNo, because under UK law it's not a simple checklist of things that make a person a contractor or a worker. There are a long list of reasons given in the judgment that apply to Uber and not, say, 99designs.
- pmyteh 10y agoNo; there's plenty of scope in English law for genuine self-employment. Genuinely self-employed people using a marketplace to find work are not employees of the marketplace. But if you (in reality) look like an employee of an intermediary firm - they have control over what, when, and how you work, you can't substitute yourself with a colleague or sub-contractor, and so on - then the state will ignore the 'form' of the contract you've signed and look to the substance. In many of these cases (especially those of the new courier firms who 'self-'employ drivers/deliverers) it looks and smells like an employment relationship. The courts are entitled to find that that's what it is.
- Someone 10y agoNot should, but could? Yes, if the site demanded the designers to sign strict contracts. For example, if it requires designers to only work through them, be available 9-5 every weekday with x holidays to be asked for weeks ahead, and accept a fixed hourly rate, I'm fairly sure the U.K. would judge the designer to be employed by the site. Alternatively, if the site only is a broker who brings designers into contact with clients (free or for a fee), and a designer works for a single client for years, chances are (IMHO, IANAL) the U.K. would judge the designer to be employed by the client.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoIf the site exercised enough direction and control so they specified you must do the work at their desk in their working hours. If they deny you the right to substitute an acceptable alternative person, or work for others, then the relationship would start to seem of employment. There's quite a lot of other pointers. Uber seem to fail most of these "in business" points for their drivers with their heavily one sided agreement. Going back to IT contractors and IR35 in the early '00s it's been a constant "discussion" of where the line is. For contractors we had to get quite good at amending contracts, and satisfy other aspects to be able to remain unaffected. In that case the govt wanted us to be employees, contractors didn't!
- UK-AL 10y agoI'll think you find that Uber drivers also want to be self employed. There is only 2 drivers who led this case, and they currently work for some private taxi cab association.
- hythloday 10y agoAnd all people on zero-hours contracts love that and all children who worked in factories were violently against being sent to school.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoCertainly not the impression I've got from media reports of demos and Uber Eat strike days etc. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. For drivers I don't understand the appeal of being self employed there's nothing to gain by it. If they still want to show they're operating as self employed they can with a b2b relationship with Uber, website and advertising, exercising right of substitution, and all the other HMRC indicators of being in business.
- UK-AL 10y agoDepends, If all their drivers lose their jobs because of this, people will just be angry at the law. Considering Uber is pretty useful for people like to work flexbility, there would a few of them.
- IanCal 10y agoThis has nothing to do with working flexibly. Worker status has absolutely no requirements about regular hours. If they regulated the hours worked they'd be much more likely to be classed as employees instead.
- FussyZeus 10y agoI find this perspective a little chilling, to be honest. In what way is Uber going to "make an example of" the UK? Companies follow laws, laws do not follow companies and that's the way it should be. Corporate interests are already extremely over-represented in Government, Government should be looking out for the people not the companies.
- walshemj 10y agoThey are looking after the people working in the gig economy
- SolaceQuantum 10y agoIf I interpret correctly, Uber is doing no such thing to those working in the gig economy. That's why they're getting prosecuted.
- huhtenberg 10y agoThis case was brought up by Uber drivers, not the UK government. If Uber is to cease its UK operations, then it will ultimately be because drivers went to court, so it should give others a pause when considering doing the same. The bottom line that the UK drivers wanted to have a cake and eat it, bit the hand that feeds them, etc. If Uber lets this slide, it creates a bad precedent for them.
- FussyZeus 10y agoNothing you're saying is incorrect, but the underlying problem is that Uber drivers provide a needed service with a market and are not being compensated properly, and this goes for a lot of the gig economy. We can argue all day about this but I don't think it's unreasonable for people who provide a service that people want to demand in exchange a livable wage for their work, regardless of what the work happens to be. There's been a trend in our society the last 30 years or so that paints a picture of everyone who does manual labor for a living as being a lesser person, and it's damaging us. Yes, automation will save us from a lot of our current burdens but we're not there yet, and until we are we still need people to unclog our drains, pave our streets and maintain the sewers. It's not glamorous and not skilled but it is desperately needed, and we can't just say "well low wages come with shitty jobs" and walk away like not having garbagemen is an option.
- celticninja 10y agoHardly making an example of the UK. Whats more likely to happen is that Lyft, or some other Uber competitor, would happily take their place, customers and drivers alike.
- abvdasker 10y agoLyft is even more economically troubled than Uber and faces all the same regulatory obstacles so... no.
- cnorthwood 10y agoThe only loser in that case is Uber. Uber has made most existing minicab firms step up their game - quite a few were experimenting with apps before Uber arrived, but now almost all but the one man shops have apps (in addition to phone operators), text messages on arrival, car tracking, etc... I'd be surprised if Uber can't find a way to make it profitable here, it's a long established market and they're not /that/ much cheaper, if at all, than the competition - unless the minicab industry is simply one which doesn't scale.
- dazc 10y ago'Uber basically has little choice but to exit the UK..' Outside of London Uber doesn't have that much of a presence. And, where it does, the drivers are often regular private hire drivers using Uber as an extra form of revenue. So exiting the UK isn't going to hurt them so much.
- tcrews 10y agoUber doesn't make an example out of the UK. The UK makes an example out of Uber. I think you got your power play confused.
- mcmoose75 10y agoIt kinda goes both ways- sure, the UK can make a power play here, but Uber can make an example to drivers in other countries as well. "You want to make a case that you're employees? Joke's on you- now you have nothing. Peace." The Wal-Mart analogy is actually pretty good- they've effectively deterred workers from unionizing by simply shutting stores where workers try to form a union. They've made it clear that if workers form a union, they'll shortly be out of jobs. One can argue about the morality of this approach, but not really its effectiveness.
- gaius 10y agoPeople still need n number of cabs - the drivers will just work for another firm. Addison Lee have an app and comply with all relevant laws.
- anuberaway 10y agoIn many US cities before Uber, there was simply no way to get a cab when you wanted it. Markets match supply with demand but not when they're highly regulated. I recall a few 45 minute hikes through San Francisco on a Friday night, futilely waving at each full cab that drove by
- IanCal 10y agoThere's not all that much they really need to do to meet their requirements though. Pay minimum wage, give/pay holidays, give rest breaks. Pay national insurance.