9 ms·

Contrary to the HN demography, most people are not touch-typists, and most don't use keyboard shortcuts. Having an interactive, contextual bar of action buttons

• vmasto 10y ago
  There was a time (up until yesterday that is) where the Pro series was targeted to said HN demographic. I think the amount of criticism is perfectly reasonable.
  • jmkni 10y ago
    It would almost make more sense to put the touchbar on the regular Macbook and a set of proper function keys on the Pro model.
    • ynniv 10y ago
      Not "almost". It would make more sense to put a frivolous toy on the MacBook, and keep function keys and ports on the MBP.
      • Klathmon 10y ago
        Come on, you might not like this, but calling it a "frivolous toy" is condescending at best. As a developer, i'm extremely jealous. I've actually made something somewhat similar[0] with a physical keyboard because the idea of a set of keys that I can have do useful stuff is such a nice idea. I would love it if not only was that set of buttons on my laptop, but that it was programmable and customizable per application (half of the keys on that keyboard only work in my IDE) It might not be for you, but it's not useless. [0]http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg Cut me some slack on the button functions themselves, I actually don't use a lot of them and want to re-do the layout for a while to get rid of them, but just haven't gotten around to doing it.
        • TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
          It's a nice-to-have, but it's not a game changer, and there won't be many situations where it provides a big productivity boost over a mouse + keyboard. I would have been much more impressed with better basic specs, and maybe a new separate keyboard with touchbar/trackpad features. A keyboard with OLED keycaps would be awesome for creative applications and for developers, because you could see a full set of functions at the same time, and you could set them up to switch automatically as you switched applications.
      • usrusr 10y ago
        Trickle down market segmentation is hardly a new invention. Leaving the conventional keys to the more expensive model would be like setting up billboards that say "we invented this fancy new thing, unfortunately it's a downgrade from what we had before".
    • kylec 10y ago
      Apple built a new MacBook Pro keyboard without the Touch Bar for the low-end 13" version, so they theoretically could put that on their higher-end versions too. Maybe they should make the Touch Bar a no-cost CTO option for all MacBook Pro versions.
  • ubernostrum 10y ago
    Was it, though? The Macbook Pro was never marketed as a developer's machine. Its popularity among people who code was mostly due to the factors that made it popular with people who don't code, plus the coincidence of being Unix under the hood (a choice they didn't make in order to win software developers as hardware customers).
    • crush_xc 10y ago
      I always saw it as a strong portable machine for people who needed to work on the go. I'm sure video editors, photo editors, audio people use shortcuts and do touch typing.
      • ch4s3 10y ago
        I know a number of video and photo editors, and while this is anecdata, I'm positive that none of them touch type. I've seen a few of the hunt and peck on a regular basis. I mean, I'm a software dev and I'm not great at typing either.
      • paavokoya 10y ago
        As a professional photo/video/audio editor, my problem with this is not "touch-typing" but rather it's another thing I'll have to adjust my senses to. I'll have to relearn the keyboard and spend unnecessary time adjusting settings and configuration for something I don't need. On top of all this, the keyboard will feel more fragile and have more complexity. I prefer reliability over unnecessary complication.
    • awinder 10y ago
      At the very least, there is then a missed opportunity on Apple's part to continue serving an audience that: A) Has been served by Apple in the past B) Provides value to Apple in the form of developing all kinds of software solutions that it's other users directly benefit from
      • ubernostrum 10y ago
        Gonna point you to this reply, which is quite good: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818193
  • gutnor 10y ago
    I commented on that before, but should I feel bad because I don't touch type the function keys ? I just can't believe that everybody here just touch type the screen brightness increase. Especially considering that those keys don't even map to the same function keys on all MacBook or external keyboards. Also, do people really use the regular function keys in anger ? In my java IDE the only more or less common shortcuts on the function keys are the debugger run and step over/through. Those are used in "read mode" rather than "type mode" and I would think that a proper row of debug related custom button on the keyboard would rather be an improvement compared to remembering which of F7 or F8 step into the next line. And that's it, I don't use them at all in any other application, especially not in the terminal, text editor, browser, mail applications, ... Is the HN demographic really that much more sophisticated than me, or is it simply overblowing the issue in a similar fashion that allegedly no "real power user" would get over the loss of Blackberry physical buttons. Ironically, a few years back, as a proper power user touch typing function keys on a mechanical keyboard (windows use and abuse function keys for about everything), my choice of mechanical keyboard included those function keys and that was seen as a weakness by the "real pro user" of the time that never left the home row and were very proud showing off their happy hacking keyboard professional. edit: Just to avoid confusion, I touch type. Just not the function keys.
• eddieroger 10y ago
  I agree that this is easily forgotten in the HN bubble. Sure, vi enthusiasts should be very upset that the escape key isn't real anymore, but for people like my parents or even younger cousins who don't touch type all that well, having a dynamic context menu right there on a keyboard that they're already looking at is fantastic. I'm interested to know if Apple ever kept stats on how often people would use the volume keys, for example, versus using the menubar control. I like to pretend that they use data to make decisions like this, but this Touch Bar still feels like a "look what we can do" move.
  • rickyc091 10y ago
    Exactly this. I think what most people forget is that they are primarily targeting the new generation of kids growing up. The kids that are growing up with iPhones as their first cellphones, iPads as their first tablet and Macs as their first computers. That's what Apple wants. Kids these days are use to the whole idea of multitouch. See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is. Kids in high school are provided with chromebooks. They don't even know what .doc extension types are. It's a different time and they are targeting those kids.
    • skyyler 10y ago
      >See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is Are you guessing that they won't? Phones and game systems still use SD cards and usb drives. Any kid that has a 3DS or a Wii U probably knows what an SD card is, or at the very least has seen one and knows how to use it. Flash drives are still commonly used (not sure what makes you think they aren't, have you tried to share a 5gb+ file with someone who is right beside you?) You're being pretty unfair to those 15-16 year olds you're talking about. They're not stupid.
      • Asooka 10y ago
        They're not stupid now, but if we obfuscate everything hard enough, maybe the future ones will be.
      • 10y ago
• falcolas 10y ago
  I would have to ask - how many people would spend the extra money on a "pro" version of a laptop are not touch typists? The intersection seems minimal. Not to mention, touch typing has been taught in schools for years. I took a class in it and I am in my late 30's. My niece has taken such a class and is still a freshman in High School.
  • alistairSH 10y ago
    Photographers and graphic artists? They probably touch type, but might find the "context menu" aspect of the touchbar compelling?
• hash-set 10y ago
  Wouldn't it make sense to become a touch typist, then? I've watched so many developers be less effective than they could be simply because they can't type!
  • syshum 10y ago
    Shhh, one should not have to learn how to use their tools.
  • oarsinsync 10y ago
    It would, if your professional life depends on typing. Many people's do not. There are many kitchen tools being marketed to casual home cooks, and not professional chefs. The solution isn't for everyone to become a professional chef to stop those products coming to market, it's for professional chefs to recognise those products are not meant for them. Even if the manufacturer used to tailor to their needs before, markets change.
  • eludwig 10y ago
    This is actually easier said than done. I'm 58 and been a hunt and peck typist (at this point a fairly effective and fast one) all my life. I've been a developer for 30 years. I've tried several times to learn to touch-type. I can do all of the exercises, play all of the games, but I have never been able to make the leap from looking to not looking at the keyboard. It's the gap where you still have a full-time job to do along with those expectations that I fall down. :( Maybe it's to late for me? That aside, I have never had any problem with productivity as a developer. As a "typist", yes, but not as an author of software. It just never comes up. Do I feel less "cool" when I am in a room with people looking at me type? Hell yes. But am I actually getting things done slower? Probably some things. Typing commands, yes. I could be faster there. Typing code? Maybe. Just adding the perspective of a long time 6 fingered typist (occasionally 7).
    • tstrimple 10y ago
      You can be a touch typist without using the strict home row and finger placement. I would actually argue that the home row concept isn't ideal for developers especially. My fingers actually rest between the keys, and I know I press keys with the "wrong" fingers (easy to notice on ergonomic keyboards), but I do not have to look at my keys and I type around 70 words per minute without feeling like I'm rushing.
• ungzd 10y ago
  I think most people who use computers for a long time don't look at keyboard. It's not required to use full touch-typing discipline to just not look at keyboard.
• KirinDave 10y ago
  Right, but this doesn't mean immediately that the touch bar is a good (or even novel!) idea. Other vendors have actually tried something quite similar w/out touch and had limited adoption. I'm not convinced that a tiny slice of super-reactive real-estate is going to be anything but another menubar item fiasco for the OS. These sorts of things only scale when the ecosystem is rather limited. And it bears repeating: if Apple really cared about this they'd make multitouch available on every screen and start retooling their OS to support it the way Win10 has.
• dbbk 10y ago
  Is this actually true though? I've always assumed touch typing was what the majority of people do.
  • addicted 10y ago
    Even if it isn't, I have to wonder about the cognitive load of a constantly changing control strip. I'd say the closest analog would be the Mac menu bar, and even that works because it is largely consistent across apps. So far the only benefit I can see is that it's a touchscreen in an ergonomically better position (although, is even this true? How much better is this than touching a bar at the bottom of the main display itself?) Watching the DJ do stuff on that narrow strip was painful. About the only decent demo was the photoshop one, but why wouldn't photoshop not simply include similar touch controls on the screen for windows devices, which have complete touch screens
• JPKab 10y ago
  "Most people are not touch-typists" Is this still really true? I thought that touch-typing is pretty much a mandatory educational requirement in large parts of the developed world, including the United States.
  • bshimmin 10y ago
    Interesting! Unless I'm totally wrong, it isn't mandatory in the UK at least, and I hardly know anyone who can touch-type properly here, relatively few people who can type fast and accurately, and almost no one outside of tech who can type without looking at the keyboard. I was forced to learn to touch-type properly by an older sibling when I was about 8; a quarter of a century or so later, I never look at the keyboard and can do ~120wpm if I put my mind to it (some keyboards are better than others, admittedly), though I feel like my accuracy isn't perhaps what it once was (maybe due to less practice? I spend more time talking to clients and less time typing these days...). Get 'em while they're young, I say.
  • javierga 10y ago
    I had to change my layout to dvorak to learn to touch-type. Also, not mandatory in Spain and most of E.U.
    • microcolonel 10y ago
      That's how I learned as well. Turns out it's very comfortable once you're used to it though. I've never gone back to QWERTY since then.
• draw_down 10y ago
  I could understand skepticism of this before they announced and demoed it, but after? I was really impressed by the thought and detailed work that went into it. It seems super, super useful to me. Definitely much more useful than a row of function keys I rarely interact with. I don't understand the disappointment with it. It's not "shiny" bullshit.