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> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. macOS does have costs to develop, too, though--and they only recoup tha

> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. macOS does have costs to develop, too, though--and they only recoup that investment when people buy Macs. There's also these things: * Unibody case * Thinness, lightness, aesthetics * Better keyboard * Dramatically better trackpad * Hardware / software integration * Internet Recovery / Target Disk Mode / Time Machine * Environmental friendliness * Resale value * Lasting 5+ years for even normal consumers * Apple's Support vs. Dell's or Microsoft's I'm OK with it. It's fairly common industry knowledge that companies like Dell and Acer barely turn a profit on consumer PCs. It's unreasonable to expect Apple to make such a better computer at the same price.

overcast 10y ago
I respect your opinion, however I think you're placing way too much value on features that haven't changed in many generations of this. If you want to argue that they are still recovering R&D costs on unibody cases, a keyboard, and the near abandonment of their desktop hardware AND OS lineup. Then I'm going to bow out gracefully :)
- moduspwnens14 10y ago
  What they're recouping costs on and whether or not the features have changed is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether it's worth buying a Windows laptop instead (or sticking with an existing Mac). They don't have some moral obligation to have their price in-line with the cheapest thing Dell or Acer can come up with at similar specs. They sell a premium product and those features matter.
  - overcast 10y ago
    No one is arguing that Apple should price their products competitively to commodity Dell and Acer laptops.
    - moduspwnens14 10y ago
      Plenty of people are, but your argument is unclear. Prices for things aren't set based on the amount of innovation since the previous release of that thing.
      - overcast 10y ago
        I didn't say pricing was based on the amount of innovation. What's being discussed here is whether the price makes sense to the consumer from a value standpoint. iPhone sales are down 5% from the previous quarter, and I suspect a lot of it is due to people seeing no value in the upgrade compared to previous iterations. Adding one silly feature, and screwing people over on cheap parts like RAM and storage space, is dissuading consumers from running out and grabbing these "upgrades". Just look at Apple's revenue reports, down 8%, largely due to less iPhone sales. I suspect they'll see even greater losses in their desktop that received no mention, as well as in the laptop line.
3pt14159 10y ago
Also, they've always had the best display, and now it's even better. I'm so happy that it turned out that computers aren't as expensive as cars to build because I always feel like I'm getting this super luxury for what is an expensive, but affordable price. Like, Kanye West uses the same computer as me, how cool is that?
driverdan 10y ago
You forgot 50-60% margins. > Better keyboard Apple's keyboard quality has decreased significantly across all products. For example, compare the keyboard on a 2016 12" MacBook to the 2010 17" MBP. Or a 2010 15" MBP to a 2016 15" MBP. Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback.
- moduspwnens14 10y ago
  The company's margins are irrelevant to my purchasing decision. Kudos to them for putting in the R&D to come up with substantial features that commodity laptop manufacturers (and Microsoft) have failed to replicate for years. That doesn't make any of the things in my list less valuable relative to alternatives. > Apple's keyboard quality has decreased significantly across all products. For example, compare the keyboard on a 2016 12" MacBook to the 2010 17" MBP. Or a 2010 15" MBP to a 2016 15" MBP. Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback. OK--that one's a little subjective. How about the other dozen or so things in the list? Can you see how they (perhaps) might justify a higher price to some people?
- rayiner 10y ago
  > Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback. I really just can't fathom this. As long as you know you've pressed the key and when you haven't, what's the point of more key travel and feedback? The MB keyboard's trigger mechanism is very precise--you're never wondering whether a key press actually registered.
  - brians 10y ago
    Half of the typing control system is fixed: proprioception, reflexes for stopping finger extensions when you hit something. Keyboards designed to work well with that system---the hand and brain---let a user type more rapidly and more surely.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      What about extra key travel is "designed to work well" with "the hand and brain?" If anything, it's unnecessary work to push the keys any further than you need to after your brain registers the key press.
rayiner 10y ago
> It's fairly common industry knowledge that companies like Dell and Acer barely turn a profit on consumer PCs. It's unreasonable to expect Apple to make such a better computer at the same price. The razor-thin margins in PC space force PC manufacturers into making bizarre compromises. I've been looking for a rMBP 15" replacement for about a year now and every alternative seems to have some sort of deal breaker driven by cost cutting. Coil whine on the XPS 15, low-contrast IPS displays on much of HP's lineup, PWM backlights on the T560, 50-60 watt-hour batteries on laptops that aren't any smaller than the rMBP, which packs 100 watt-hours (or used to, grr). I think the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model. But there still may be nothing comparable at any price-point.
- toyg 10y ago
  > the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model That's what drives me nuts. It would have taken very little to keep being the best: more ram, refreshed chipsets, refreshed ports. Instead, they went backwards "because 10% thinner", then tacked on the touchbar to distract you from that fact, and increased prices. Btw, if you are looking for alternatives, there's also the Razer Stealth - especially if you're in the US, where they actually sell the eGPU enclosure. I'm really tempted by the XPS 15 as well, the price is really good and it might get a newer GPU soon.
- cableshaft 10y ago
  > I think the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model. Could you elaborate on that? I'm debating getting a 2015 refurb, but is there a reason I should get an even older one?
  - rayiner 10y ago
    The 2013-2015 models are basically the same machine, except the 2015 has the Force Trackpad. I think the 2016 model is a regression from the previous one.
willtim 10y ago
Better keyboard? You need to pay less attention to the marketing. The latest MBP keyboard has almost no travel, it's evolving into an iPad.

overcast 10y ago

I respect your opinion, however I think you're placing way too much value on features that haven't changed in many generations of this. If you want to argue that they are still recovering R&D costs on unibody cases, a keyboard, and the near abandonment of their desktop hardware AND OS lineup. Then I'm going to bow out gracefully :)

moduspwnens14 10y ago
What they're recouping costs on and whether or not the features have changed is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether it's worth buying a Windows laptop instead (or sticking with an existing Mac). They don't have some moral obligation to have their price in-line with the cheapest thing Dell or Acer can come up with at similar specs. They sell a premium product and those features matter.
- overcast 10y ago
  No one is arguing that Apple should price their products competitively to commodity Dell and Acer laptops.
  - moduspwnens14 10y ago
    Plenty of people are, but your argument is unclear. Prices for things aren't set based on the amount of innovation since the previous release of that thing.
    - overcast 10y ago
      I didn't say pricing was based on the amount of innovation. What's being discussed here is whether the price makes sense to the consumer from a value standpoint. iPhone sales are down 5% from the previous quarter, and I suspect a lot of it is due to people seeing no value in the upgrade compared to previous iterations. Adding one silly feature, and screwing people over on cheap parts like RAM and storage space, is dissuading consumers from running out and grabbing these "upgrades". Just look at Apple's revenue reports, down 8%, largely due to less iPhone sales. I suspect they'll see even greater losses in their desktop that received no mention, as well as in the laptop line.

3pt14159 10y ago

Also, they've always had the best display, and now it's even better. I'm so happy that it turned out that computers aren't as expensive as cars to build because I always feel like I'm getting this super luxury for what is an expensive, but affordable price. Like, Kanye West uses the same computer as me, how cool is that?

driverdan 10y ago

You forgot 50-60% margins. > Better keyboard Apple's keyboard quality has decreased significantly across all products. For example, compare the keyboard on a 2016 12" MacBook to the 2010 17" MBP. Or a 2010 15" MBP to a 2016 15" MBP. Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback.

moduspwnens14 10y ago
The company's margins are irrelevant to my purchasing decision. Kudos to them for putting in the R&D to come up with substantial features that commodity laptop manufacturers (and Microsoft) have failed to replicate for years. That doesn't make any of the things in my list less valuable relative to alternatives. > Apple's keyboard quality has decreased significantly across all products. For example, compare the keyboard on a 2016 12" MacBook to the 2010 17" MBP. Or a 2010 15" MBP to a 2016 15" MBP. Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback. OK--that one's a little subjective. How about the other dozen or so things in the list? Can you see how they (perhaps) might justify a higher price to some people?
rayiner 10y ago
> Key travel is shallower and there's less physical feedback. I really just can't fathom this. As long as you know you've pressed the key and when you haven't, what's the point of more key travel and feedback? The MB keyboard's trigger mechanism is very precise--you're never wondering whether a key press actually registered.
- brians 10y ago
  Half of the typing control system is fixed: proprioception, reflexes for stopping finger extensions when you hit something. Keyboards designed to work well with that system---the hand and brain---let a user type more rapidly and more surely.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    What about extra key travel is "designed to work well" with "the hand and brain?" If anything, it's unnecessary work to push the keys any further than you need to after your brain registers the key press.

rayiner 10y ago

> It's fairly common industry knowledge that companies like Dell and Acer barely turn a profit on consumer PCs. It's unreasonable to expect Apple to make such a better computer at the same price. The razor-thin margins in PC space force PC manufacturers into making bizarre compromises. I've been looking for a rMBP 15" replacement for about a year now and every alternative seems to have some sort of deal breaker driven by cost cutting. Coil whine on the XPS 15, low-contrast IPS displays on much of HP's lineup, PWM backlights on the T560, 50-60 watt-hour batteries on laptops that aren't any smaller than the rMBP, which packs 100 watt-hours (or used to, grr). I think the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model. But there still may be nothing comparable at any price-point.

toyg 10y ago
> the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model That's what drives me nuts. It would have taken very little to keep being the best: more ram, refreshed chipsets, refreshed ports. Instead, they went backwards "because 10% thinner", then tacked on the touchbar to distract you from that fact, and increased prices. Btw, if you are looking for alternatives, there's also the Razer Stealth - especially if you're in the US, where they actually sell the eGPU enclosure. I'm really tempted by the XPS 15 as well, the price is really good and it might get a newer GPU soon.
cableshaft 10y ago
> I think the new rMBP 15" is a less good machine than the 2013-2015 model. Could you elaborate on that? I'm debating getting a 2015 refurb, but is there a reason I should get an even older one?
- rayiner 10y ago
  The 2013-2015 models are basically the same machine, except the 2015 has the Force Trackpad. I think the 2016 model is a regression from the previous one.

willtim 10y ago

Better keyboard? You need to pay less attention to the marketing. The latest MBP keyboard has almost no travel, it's evolving into an iPad.