11 ms·

I'm not one to complain about paying for quality, but their pricing across the board is just getting ridiculous. There's no major innovation here to justify suc

I'm not one to complain about paying for quality, but their pricing across the board is just getting ridiculous. There's no major innovation here to justify such price hikes. 16GB RAM limits on a $3200 laptop is bewildering to me. If the strategy here is to kill off the Mac brand, while focusing only on the iPhone, then I think they are well on their way. If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. Edit: Additional thoughts. That OLED touch bar is going to be the equivalent of force touch on the iPhone. Neat idea, that will be forgotten. Also, whose idea was it to make that track pad ENORMOUS? When has anyone ever wished they had a track pad that took up 2/3 of the palm area? I hope their palm sensing is 100% perfect.

cmdrfred 10y ago
I've been thinking about this lately. Microsoft is doing the same thing if you look at it's enterprise products. Low innovation, high cost seems to be the business model of late. I wonder if it has to do with the founders of the company leaving and the reins being placed in the hands of MBA types. It seems like Bill and Steve weren't as afraid of a bad quarter as the current leadership is and took more risks as such.
- overcast 10y ago
  Plausible. So if that's their intention, open up the OS to be put on ANY hardware, and stop fucking around with your loyal user base. I hate to break it to Apple, but the people making all of those silly apps for their iPhone, aren't developing them on the iPhone!
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Surface series and the hololens are non-innovative?
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I liked the surface better when it was called the iPad. That said I was speaking about software products mainly, what was originally Microsoft's bread and butter. Windows 10 is just Windows 8 that spies on you more and includes advertising. I'll believe hololens when I see it, but that seems to be more of a Xbox product than something I'm going to see in someone's office any time soon.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Are you actually comparing a tablet with a limited and locked OS to a device that can run any consumer OS/Application?
      - cmdrfred 10y ago
        Windows Tablets have existed for a decade. They just did not have the build quality of an iPad. Now they do. I don't call that some major innovation.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        Again windows tablets before the iPad weren't tablets, they were Table PC's they were effectively a laptop and so the build quality was what was possible with the hardware limitation of the day. I honestly didn't find the build quality of the iPad's until the Air/Air 2 to be that appealing as far as tablets go, always felt to bulky and heavy for what they were. I also find it pretty disappointing where people talk about the build quality of Apple devices, it looks great, and feels good, but it doesn't mean it's built great, have you ever tried to take an MBP or an Iphone apart? I love my MBP15 and Iphone but if I need to take one device with me and have my life depend on it it wouldn't be either of those since I would not take a device I cannot disassemble and repair myself without having access to an electronics lab. The Surface was innovative the pen worked great, the formfactor was pretty amazing for the power in it and the OS was pretty good, the Surface Book was also pretty innovative even tho it wasn't the first detachable screen they really worked on the mechanics, electronics and software to make it as good as it can get, the Surface Studio is also not the first but it looks to be near perfection for content creators of nearly all types and every content creator I know was pretty excited about it. The sad part is that for some reason I have a strong suspicion that if there was an Apple logo on the back of the Surface Studio instead of 4 squares some types of people would be drooling all over it even if 99% of what it offers would be utterly useless to them.
        cmdrfred 10y ago
        >The Surface was innovative the pen worked great Thank Wacom, not Microsoft. They invented and perfected the tech for that years ago. >the formfactor was pretty amazing for the power in it Thank Apple for pushing the envelope on the form factor and Intel for creating the hardware. There isn't anything there that hasn't been done before. >the OS was pretty good, I disagree, it is ad supported and spies on users. >he Surface Book was also pretty innovative even tho it wasn't the first detachable screen they really worked on the mechanics, electronics and software to make it as good as it can get, the Surface Studio is also not the first but it looks to be near perfection for content creators of nearly all types and every content creator I know was pretty excited about it. That doesn't sound at all innovative. To be honest that sounds like regurgitated marking speak. >The sad part is that for some reason I have a strong suspicion that if there was an Apple logo on the back of the Surface Studio instead of 4 squares some types of people would be drooling all over it even if 99% of what it offers would be utterly useless to them. I don't buy either so it doesn't influence me. Innovation looks like what Tesla is doing. Make something great then drive the price down as low as it can go. Microsoft and Apple products seem to cost more and more year on year. Teslas keep getting cheaper.
- tyng 10y ago
  Since I swithced to Surface earlier this year I haven't looked back. True, Surface is not as good as Macbook but it does the job and is much lighter to carry around as a full laptop (iPad is not a full laptop). Now with Surface Studio coming out soon it's a real challenger to the iMac. The iPhone is the only remaining reason I want to stay within the Apple ecosystem.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I personally don't buy high end products like the iPhone or Surface. I have used them for work, and pound for pound, I still prefer my Cyanogenmod OnePlus 2 and Chromebook running Debian. I get easily 8+ hours of heavy use out of each (12+ for my chromebook) and I have a far greater level of control over my data. If you look at some of the things coming out of Shenzhen lately they are hitting price points that allow almost everyone to own a relatively high end phone or computer (Remember this is what Microsoft used to be all about, they cut the cost of a PC to a third of what it was before them). That's what innovation looks like to me. Not some feature you will forget about a week after you have the device.
    - noir_lord 10y ago
      Out of curiosity which Chromebook?
danieldk 10y ago
their pricing across the board is just getting ridiculous This is not really about Apple pricing, since the prices went up by up to 20% for many existing Apple products. This is the result of the post-Brexit vote and its effect on the exchange rate of the pound sterling. I guess the UK will see such price raises across the board. Of course, it's all good for the UK's export as long as they are still in the single market.
- overcast 10y ago
  By across the board, I meant in all countries. You're paying A LOT more for a Mac Book Pro now, for essentially nothing more than an incremental hardware update, a light bar, and less ports.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - danieldk 10y ago
    The MacBook Pro 13" without Touch Bar is still the same price as the MacBook Pro 13" was when it was introduced in 2012. Still, it is much lighter, flatter, and has a modern CPU, GPU, SSD, a better screen, etc. Anyway, my point was that it is weird to complain about Apple prices as a reaction to an article that points out that prices for tech is increasing in the UK as a result of the Brexit.
    - overcast 10y ago
      Not strange at all, the Apple presentation was yesterday. Everyone is still discussing the new lineup as a whole, and it is directly related to this.
      - hellofunk 10y ago
        All your points here are simply false. You can buy a better MacBook today than 4 years ago but for the same price in US Dollars as four years ago.
denzil_correa 10y ago
> 16GB RAM limits on a $3200 laptop is bewildering to me. ... > If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. Exactly! The only thing that makes me go for them is the macOS. The software seems good for now. But, how long before Microsoft seeps in the general market via their corporate tie ups strategy?
- antouank 10y ago
  I'm mostly sticking with them for the OS as well. Why isn't someone grabbing the chance to take a linux distro and polish it to get that audience? I would happily pay for that OS so I can use it with any PC/laptop I want.
  - bosie 10y ago
    Why the OS though? How often do you interact with the operating system compared to the applications? More than half the applications i use most have no alternative on linux. Someone polishing linux is not the bottleneck (for me).
    - hacker_9 10y ago
      Agree. Linux users tend to be more technical though so they are often the most vocal on the internet.
    - antouank 10y ago
      I don't think I use any macOS specific apps. Browsers, text editors, terminal, email clients, docker etc, all of them exist on Linux.
      - overcast 10y ago
        If that's the case, then Linux is an alternative to you. However a lot of apps people use are Mac OS specific. I know for damn sure I couldn't live without UniBox for email at this point.
Shivetya 10y ago
I have two problems with the touch bar, first its so damn small and secondly, its at the top of the keyboard away from the touch pad. I can almost forgive its location but the size is such you have to focus on it to use it As for pricing, what about reducing prices on models that are clearly obsolete (Mac Pro)
- ninjaoxygen 10y ago
  For me the whole point of having a keyboard with physical keys is that I do not have to look down from the screen! Placing contextual controls down there seems at odds with the whole idea of the keyboard and trackpad being usable without the need to take my attention away from the screen.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
creshal 10y ago
16 GB RAM limit was already annoying on my 2011-era 12" notebook. And that's flagship now? Wow.
- jpalomaki 10y ago
  That's quite strange limitation. Is there some technical reason for this? Is the memory soldered in to save space? Do they only have one dimm?
  - fzzzy 10y ago
    The memory is soldered in to save space, yes. That also means it is not aftermarket upgradeable. But still, they could have soldered 32 gb on.
  - mrcarrot 10y ago
    As far as I know, yes the memory is soldered in.
  - toyg 10y ago
    Memory is soldered, but they could have had a 32gb option regardless -- they still have the 8gb option after all. The real limitation IMHO is power: to chase thinness, they reduced the battery volume and went for all the low-power options they could find. 32gb would likely not be low-power.
  - otterley 10y ago
    It's a CPU limitation when used with LPDDR3 modules. See http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/7th-gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.html http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/7th-g... (See section 2.1.1.3, "LPDDR3 supported memory devices")
- Melown 10y ago
  Right? That's such crap.
- mschaef 10y ago
  Why is it annoying? I'm genuinely curious: what are you doing that takes that much RAM?
moduspwnens14 10y ago
> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. macOS does have costs to develop, too, though--and they only recoup that investment when people buy Macs. There's also these things: * Unibody case * Thinness, lightness, aesthetics * Better keyboard * Dramatically better trackpad * Hardware / software integration * Internet Recovery / Target Disk Mode / Time Machine * Environmental friendliness * Resale value * Lasting 5+ years for even normal consumers * Apple's Support vs. Dell's or Microsoft's I'm OK with it. It's fairly common industry knowledge that companies like Dell and Acer barely turn a profit on consumer PCs. It's unreasonable to expect Apple to make such a better computer at the same price.
- overcast 10y ago
  I respect your opinion, however I think you're placing way too much value on features that haven't changed in many generations of this. If you want to argue that they are still recovering R&D costs on unibody cases, a keyboard, and the near abandonment of their desktop hardware AND OS lineup. Then I'm going to bow out gracefully :)
  - moduspwnens14 10y ago
    What they're recouping costs on and whether or not the features have changed is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether it's worth buying a Windows laptop instead (or sticking with an existing Mac). They don't have some moral obligation to have their price in-line with the cheapest thing Dell or Acer can come up with at similar specs. They sell a premium product and those features matter.
    - overcast 10y ago
      No one is arguing that Apple should price their products competitively to commodity Dell and Acer laptops.
      - moduspwnens14 10y ago
        Plenty of people are, but your argument is unclear. Prices for things aren't set based on the amount of innovation since the previous release of that thing.
aczerepinski 10y ago
The price is roughly the same (inflation adjusted) as the original 2006 Macbook Pro. Things have certainly improved since the original Powerbook, which was around $12k in today's dollars. My background is in music, where folks routinely pay 10x for an instrument that is 20% better (arbitrary numbers, but I think the point holds). If you're a developer, your laptop is your "axe" that you make money with day in and day out. Does it really matter if it costs $1k or $3k? If it makes an employee half a percent more productive, what is that worth to a business?
- overcast 10y ago
  I really don't think Apple is targeting corporate customers with emoji touch bars. Of course, if you NEED it, you need it. I'm not arguing that. For everyone else, the cost for what you get is not reasonable. Also, after spending the last fifteen years on the IT side of a large enterprise. No manager on this earth would approve upgrading $3000+ laptops, for a half a percent in theoretical productivity. Business is, and has always been, making the most money, by spending the absolute least money. Regarding your inflation comment. Yes the price is similar. But the value for what you got in earlier years was MUCH greater, than what you get now. Sure, a 2016 laptop is better than a 2006 laptop. But at the time, the 2006 laptop was amazing, and the 2016 model is nothing special with its dated components.
  - aczerepinski 10y ago
    I have an employer provided top of the line Macbook, as do most (all?) of my developer friends. Random devs at tech meetups mostly have 15" Macbooks. It's typical for recruiter spam emails to mention any computer + monitor you want as part of the standard hiring package. On a similar note, plenty of tech companies provide Herman Miller chairs, and other perks that don't cost the "absolute least money." Are you disputing that managers on earth have approved these expenses?
    - overcast 10y ago
      Read what I was responding to. Managers aren't going to spend $3000 on AN UPGRADE machine, to gain .5% productivity. What you're describing is essentially is a sign on bonus, where the company allows you to choose your work environment. Your employer isn't going to refresh your laptop every six months on incremental upgrades. That's just asinine. We have a five year depreciation on all laptops/desktops, and we sure as shit don't upgrade someone because we think it's going to increase their productivity by a half a percent. Regarding Herman Miller chairs, those last 10-15 years easy. I'm sitting on one just as old right now. I can easily argue the cost/value for proper seating, on employee productivity and well being.
mostafah 10y ago
> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. Years ago, when I exclusively used Linux even on my local machines, I used to buy Apple computers and replace the OS with Linux. Because they used to build the best damn computers (specially laptops) out there. They were way ahead of the competition. It’s sad that now we just have to put up with Apple hardware because of software integration, etc. . If I wanted to run Linux or Windows, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to look somewhere else.
tychuz 10y ago
>That OLED touch bar is going to be the equivalent of force touch on the iPhone. Neat idea, that will be forgotten. I use it daily. Context menu for apps - like calling/texting directly to favorite/relevant person in phone, messaging and facebook messenger apps. For posted images/links previews. Most beloved feature - for moving cursor while writing anything (can't replicate this with "long press" on android).
iainmerrick 10y ago
When has anyone ever wished they had a track pad that took up 2/3 of the palm area? I hope their palm sensing is 100% perfect. Not to rehash the "PCs have terrible trackpads" thread from a few days ago, but... yes, palm sensing on Apple trackpads is close to perfect. And I guess I could live with a smaller trackpad, but a nice big one is nicer (when it works well).
- glimajr 10y ago
  I couldn't remember the last time a Mac trackpad had erroneously moved my mouse or clicked in response to my palm. So I just spent a couple minutes attempting to get it to detect my palms as valid touches and couldn't get it to happen. So at least for my hands, yeah, it seems 100% perfect.
j1vms 10y ago
> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. It's remarkable that no PC manufacturers over the past 10 to 15 years really embarked on creating their own product line specific Linux distribution to try and counter MS/Apple (besides of course any agreements they had with MS over Windows). Sure they would have had to take a risk on building software in-house, but they could have at least tried to copy the MacOS model, and use Linux, Mach or whatever as a base, and build something on top that wouldn't necessarily need to be compatible with other Linux distros or OS. That is, build a graphics stack, GUI api, and whatever they wanted to. Target only 2 or 3 proprietary product lines, so testing would be manageable. Sure, Wayland/Mir are already here or on the way, but I'm pointing at a cohesive design of hardware/software balanced balanced with clever choices in off-the-shelf components to keep costs down. If their OS was good enough and they undercut Apple at least a bit on the pricing side, developers would've showed up and delivered apps on that new "proprietary" platform. Those manufacturers wouldn't have to die off slowly the way a lot of them are now, and they'd at least have a chance at glory in 2016+.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  Back in the ~2007 Dell tried to sell Ubuntu PCs to consumers. It was an interesting experiment, but they seemed unable to figure out how to market it (even at a slightly cheaper cost) and discontinued it after a few years.
otterley 10y ago
First, $3200 laptop? Where did you get that figure from? At any rate, the 16GB RAM limit is a limitation of the CPU when used with LPDDR3 memory. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817515 for an explanation.

cmdrfred 10y ago

I've been thinking about this lately. Microsoft is doing the same thing if you look at it's enterprise products. Low innovation, high cost seems to be the business model of late. I wonder if it has to do with the founders of the company leaving and the reins being placed in the hands of MBA types. It seems like Bill and Steve weren't as afraid of a bad quarter as the current leadership is and took more risks as such.

overcast 10y ago
Plausible. So if that's their intention, open up the OS to be put on ANY hardware, and stop fucking around with your loyal user base. I hate to break it to Apple, but the people making all of those silly apps for their iPhone, aren't developing them on the iPhone!
dogma1138 10y ago
Surface series and the hololens are non-innovative?
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I liked the surface better when it was called the iPad. That said I was speaking about software products mainly, what was originally Microsoft's bread and butter. Windows 10 is just Windows 8 that spies on you more and includes advertising. I'll believe hololens when I see it, but that seems to be more of a Xbox product than something I'm going to see in someone's office any time soon.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Are you actually comparing a tablet with a limited and locked OS to a device that can run any consumer OS/Application?
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      Windows Tablets have existed for a decade. They just did not have the build quality of an iPad. Now they do. I don't call that some major innovation.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Again windows tablets before the iPad weren't tablets, they were Table PC's they were effectively a laptop and so the build quality was what was possible with the hardware limitation of the day. I honestly didn't find the build quality of the iPad's until the Air/Air 2 to be that appealing as far as tablets go, always felt to bulky and heavy for what they were. I also find it pretty disappointing where people talk about the build quality of Apple devices, it looks great, and feels good, but it doesn't mean it's built great, have you ever tried to take an MBP or an Iphone apart? I love my MBP15 and Iphone but if I need to take one device with me and have my life depend on it it wouldn't be either of those since I would not take a device I cannot disassemble and repair myself without having access to an electronics lab. The Surface was innovative the pen worked great, the formfactor was pretty amazing for the power in it and the OS was pretty good, the Surface Book was also pretty innovative even tho it wasn't the first detachable screen they really worked on the mechanics, electronics and software to make it as good as it can get, the Surface Studio is also not the first but it looks to be near perfection for content creators of nearly all types and every content creator I know was pretty excited about it. The sad part is that for some reason I have a strong suspicion that if there was an Apple logo on the back of the Surface Studio instead of 4 squares some types of people would be drooling all over it even if 99% of what it offers would be utterly useless to them.
        cmdrfred 10y ago
        >The Surface was innovative the pen worked great Thank Wacom, not Microsoft. They invented and perfected the tech for that years ago. >the formfactor was pretty amazing for the power in it Thank Apple for pushing the envelope on the form factor and Intel for creating the hardware. There isn't anything there that hasn't been done before. >the OS was pretty good, I disagree, it is ad supported and spies on users. >he Surface Book was also pretty innovative even tho it wasn't the first detachable screen they really worked on the mechanics, electronics and software to make it as good as it can get, the Surface Studio is also not the first but it looks to be near perfection for content creators of nearly all types and every content creator I know was pretty excited about it. That doesn't sound at all innovative. To be honest that sounds like regurgitated marking speak. >The sad part is that for some reason I have a strong suspicion that if there was an Apple logo on the back of the Surface Studio instead of 4 squares some types of people would be drooling all over it even if 99% of what it offers would be utterly useless to them. I don't buy either so it doesn't influence me. Innovation looks like what Tesla is doing. Make something great then drive the price down as low as it can go. Microsoft and Apple products seem to cost more and more year on year. Teslas keep getting cheaper.
tyng 10y ago
Since I swithced to Surface earlier this year I haven't looked back. True, Surface is not as good as Macbook but it does the job and is much lighter to carry around as a full laptop (iPad is not a full laptop). Now with Surface Studio coming out soon it's a real challenger to the iMac. The iPhone is the only remaining reason I want to stay within the Apple ecosystem.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I personally don't buy high end products like the iPhone or Surface. I have used them for work, and pound for pound, I still prefer my Cyanogenmod OnePlus 2 and Chromebook running Debian. I get easily 8+ hours of heavy use out of each (12+ for my chromebook) and I have a far greater level of control over my data. If you look at some of the things coming out of Shenzhen lately they are hitting price points that allow almost everyone to own a relatively high end phone or computer (Remember this is what Microsoft used to be all about, they cut the cost of a PC to a third of what it was before them). That's what innovation looks like to me. Not some feature you will forget about a week after you have the device.
  - noir_lord 10y ago
    Out of curiosity which Chromebook?

danieldk 10y ago

their pricing across the board is just getting ridiculous This is not really about Apple pricing, since the prices went up by up to 20% for many existing Apple products. This is the result of the post-Brexit vote and its effect on the exchange rate of the pound sterling. I guess the UK will see such price raises across the board. Of course, it's all good for the UK's export as long as they are still in the single market.

overcast 10y ago
By across the board, I meant in all countries. You're paying A LOT more for a Mac Book Pro now, for essentially nothing more than an incremental hardware update, a light bar, and less ports.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- danieldk 10y ago
  The MacBook Pro 13" without Touch Bar is still the same price as the MacBook Pro 13" was when it was introduced in 2012. Still, it is much lighter, flatter, and has a modern CPU, GPU, SSD, a better screen, etc. Anyway, my point was that it is weird to complain about Apple prices as a reaction to an article that points out that prices for tech is increasing in the UK as a result of the Brexit.
  - overcast 10y ago
    Not strange at all, the Apple presentation was yesterday. Everyone is still discussing the new lineup as a whole, and it is directly related to this.
    - hellofunk 10y ago
      All your points here are simply false. You can buy a better MacBook today than 4 years ago but for the same price in US Dollars as four years ago.

denzil_correa 10y ago

> 16GB RAM limits on a $3200 laptop is bewildering to me. ... > If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. Exactly! The only thing that makes me go for them is the macOS. The software seems good for now. But, how long before Microsoft seeps in the general market via their corporate tie ups strategy?

antouank 10y ago
I'm mostly sticking with them for the OS as well. Why isn't someone grabbing the chance to take a linux distro and polish it to get that audience? I would happily pay for that OS so I can use it with any PC/laptop I want.
- bosie 10y ago
  Why the OS though? How often do you interact with the operating system compared to the applications? More than half the applications i use most have no alternative on linux. Someone polishing linux is not the bottleneck (for me).
  - hacker_9 10y ago
    Agree. Linux users tend to be more technical though so they are often the most vocal on the internet.
  - antouank 10y ago
    I don't think I use any macOS specific apps. Browsers, text editors, terminal, email clients, docker etc, all of them exist on Linux.
    - overcast 10y ago
      If that's the case, then Linux is an alternative to you. However a lot of apps people use are Mac OS specific. I know for damn sure I couldn't live without UniBox for email at this point.

Shivetya 10y ago

I have two problems with the touch bar, first its so damn small and secondly, its at the top of the keyboard away from the touch pad. I can almost forgive its location but the size is such you have to focus on it to use it As for pricing, what about reducing prices on models that are clearly obsolete (Mac Pro)

ninjaoxygen 10y ago
For me the whole point of having a keyboard with physical keys is that I do not have to look down from the screen! Placing contextual controls down there seems at odds with the whole idea of the keyboard and trackpad being usable without the need to take my attention away from the screen.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

creshal 10y ago

16 GB RAM limit was already annoying on my 2011-era 12" notebook. And that's flagship now? Wow.

jpalomaki 10y ago
That's quite strange limitation. Is there some technical reason for this? Is the memory soldered in to save space? Do they only have one dimm?
- fzzzy 10y ago
  The memory is soldered in to save space, yes. That also means it is not aftermarket upgradeable. But still, they could have soldered 32 gb on.
- mrcarrot 10y ago
  As far as I know, yes the memory is soldered in.
- toyg 10y ago
  Memory is soldered, but they could have had a 32gb option regardless -- they still have the 8gb option after all. The real limitation IMHO is power: to chase thinness, they reduced the battery volume and went for all the low-power options they could find. 32gb would likely not be low-power.
- otterley 10y ago
  It's a CPU limitation when used with LPDDR3 modules. See http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/7th-gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.html http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/7th-g... (See section 2.1.1.3, "LPDDR3 supported memory devices")
Melown 10y ago
Right? That's such crap.
mschaef 10y ago
Why is it annoying? I'm genuinely curious: what are you doing that takes that much RAM?

moduspwnens14 10y ago

> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. macOS does have costs to develop, too, though--and they only recoup that investment when people buy Macs. There's also these things: * Unibody case * Thinness, lightness, aesthetics * Better keyboard * Dramatically better trackpad * Hardware / software integration * Internet Recovery / Target Disk Mode / Time Machine * Environmental friendliness * Resale value * Lasting 5+ years for even normal consumers * Apple's Support vs. Dell's or Microsoft's I'm OK with it. It's fairly common industry knowledge that companies like Dell and Acer barely turn a profit on consumer PCs. It's unreasonable to expect Apple to make such a better computer at the same price.

overcast 10y ago
I respect your opinion, however I think you're placing way too much value on features that haven't changed in many generations of this. If you want to argue that they are still recovering R&D costs on unibody cases, a keyboard, and the near abandonment of their desktop hardware AND OS lineup. Then I'm going to bow out gracefully :)
- moduspwnens14 10y ago
  What they're recouping costs on and whether or not the features have changed is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether it's worth buying a Windows laptop instead (or sticking with an existing Mac). They don't have some moral obligation to have their price in-line with the cheapest thing Dell or Acer can come up with at similar specs. They sell a premium product and those features matter.
  - overcast 10y ago
    No one is arguing that Apple should price their products competitively to commodity Dell and Acer laptops.
    - moduspwnens14 10y ago
      Plenty of people are, but your argument is unclear. Prices for things aren't set based on the amount of innovation since the previous release of that thing.

aczerepinski 10y ago

The price is roughly the same (inflation adjusted) as the original 2006 Macbook Pro. Things have certainly improved since the original Powerbook, which was around $12k in today's dollars. My background is in music, where folks routinely pay 10x for an instrument that is 20% better (arbitrary numbers, but I think the point holds). If you're a developer, your laptop is your "axe" that you make money with day in and day out. Does it really matter if it costs $1k or $3k? If it makes an employee half a percent more productive, what is that worth to a business?

overcast 10y ago
I really don't think Apple is targeting corporate customers with emoji touch bars. Of course, if you NEED it, you need it. I'm not arguing that. For everyone else, the cost for what you get is not reasonable. Also, after spending the last fifteen years on the IT side of a large enterprise. No manager on this earth would approve upgrading $3000+ laptops, for a half a percent in theoretical productivity. Business is, and has always been, making the most money, by spending the absolute least money. Regarding your inflation comment. Yes the price is similar. But the value for what you got in earlier years was MUCH greater, than what you get now. Sure, a 2016 laptop is better than a 2006 laptop. But at the time, the 2006 laptop was amazing, and the 2016 model is nothing special with its dated components.
- aczerepinski 10y ago
  I have an employer provided top of the line Macbook, as do most (all?) of my developer friends. Random devs at tech meetups mostly have 15" Macbooks. It's typical for recruiter spam emails to mention any computer + monitor you want as part of the standard hiring package. On a similar note, plenty of tech companies provide Herman Miller chairs, and other perks that don't cost the "absolute least money." Are you disputing that managers on earth have approved these expenses?
  - overcast 10y ago
    Read what I was responding to. Managers aren't going to spend $3000 on AN UPGRADE machine, to gain .5% productivity. What you're describing is essentially is a sign on bonus, where the company allows you to choose your work environment. Your employer isn't going to refresh your laptop every six months on incremental upgrades. That's just asinine. We have a five year depreciation on all laptops/desktops, and we sure as shit don't upgrade someone because we think it's going to increase their productivity by a half a percent. Regarding Herman Miller chairs, those last 10-15 years easy. I'm sitting on one just as old right now. I can easily argue the cost/value for proper seating, on employee productivity and well being.

mostafah 10y ago

> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. Years ago, when I exclusively used Linux even on my local machines, I used to buy Apple computers and replace the OS with Linux. Because they used to build the best damn computers (specially laptops) out there. They were way ahead of the competition. It’s sad that now we just have to put up with Apple hardware because of software integration, etc. . If I wanted to run Linux or Windows, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to look somewhere else.

tychuz 10y ago

>That OLED touch bar is going to be the equivalent of force touch on the iPhone. Neat idea, that will be forgotten. I use it daily. Context menu for apps - like calling/texting directly to favorite/relevant person in phone, messaging and facebook messenger apps. For posted images/links previews. Most beloved feature - for moving cursor while writing anything (can't replicate this with "long press" on android).

iainmerrick 10y ago

When has anyone ever wished they had a track pad that took up 2/3 of the palm area? I hope their palm sensing is 100% perfect. Not to rehash the "PCs have terrible trackpads" thread from a few days ago, but... yes, palm sensing on Apple trackpads is close to perfect. And I guess I could live with a smaller trackpad, but a nice big one is nicer (when it works well).

glimajr 10y ago
I couldn't remember the last time a Mac trackpad had erroneously moved my mouse or clicked in response to my palm. So I just spent a couple minutes attempting to get it to detect my palms as valid touches and couldn't get it to happen. So at least for my hands, yeah, it seems 100% perfect.

j1vms 10y ago

> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore. It's remarkable that no PC manufacturers over the past 10 to 15 years really embarked on creating their own product line specific Linux distribution to try and counter MS/Apple (besides of course any agreements they had with MS over Windows). Sure they would have had to take a risk on building software in-house, but they could have at least tried to copy the MacOS model, and use Linux, Mach or whatever as a base, and build something on top that wouldn't necessarily need to be compatible with other Linux distros or OS. That is, build a graphics stack, GUI api, and whatever they wanted to. Target only 2 or 3 proprietary product lines, so testing would be manageable. Sure, Wayland/Mir are already here or on the way, but I'm pointing at a cohesive design of hardware/software balanced balanced with clever choices in off-the-shelf components to keep costs down. If their OS was good enough and they undercut Apple at least a bit on the pricing side, developers would've showed up and delivered apps on that new "proprietary" platform. Those manufacturers wouldn't have to die off slowly the way a lot of them are now, and they'd at least have a chance at glory in 2016+.

WorldMaker 10y ago
Back in the ~2007 Dell tried to sell Ubuntu PCs to consumers. It was an interesting experiment, but they seemed unable to figure out how to market it (even at a slightly cheaper cost) and discontinued it after a few years.

otterley 10y ago

First, $3200 laptop? Where did you get that figure from? At any rate, the 16GB RAM limit is a limitation of the CPU when used with LPDDR3 memory. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817515 for an explanation.