6 ms·

It's pretty bad. We use YubiKeys a lot, and there are no ports for them. So sad. Also: Magsafe is great (it's saved my bacon a few times). Gone. ESC key, gone

by kabdib 10y ago

It's pretty bad. We use YubiKeys a lot, and there are no ports for them. So sad. Also: Magsafe is great (it's saved my bacon a few times). Gone. ESC key, gone. Don't know about the keyboard yet, but everything I've read doesn't point to it being decent. Probably not buying this generation of MacBooks. Might just bite the bullet and finally go to Linux on some decent hardware. So, what's a decent laptop for running Linux? Good keyboard, good trackpad support, good sound . . .

curioussavage 10y ago
Dell xps laptops look sweet. That's what I want next.
anuragsoni 10y ago
I'll add my reply from another thread(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12807826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12807826): I have been using the Dell Developer Edition (Precision 5510) since April. There were a few hiccups because of some driver issues related to their USB-C dock (Correct me if i'm wrong, but I guess this problem was not limited to just their linux laptop?) Ever since upgrading to Ubuntu 16.04 things have been pretty smooth. I believe any distro with a 4.4 series kernel or higher will behave pretty well. Before this I had a Thinkpad T series (The best keyboard experience on a laptop that I have come across), and I never had any problem with running any distribution of Linux. In Summary: I think you cannot go wrong with either a Thinkpad or the Dell Developer edition. They are well made machines with good support for linux.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Battery life?
  - anuragsoni 10y ago
    I have the 1080p display and with tlp installed I can get somewhere in the range of 7-9 hours.
- chongli 10y ago
  Have they fixed the coil whine[0] issues with them? From what I've seen, a lot of Dell laptops have this issue. I have really sensitive hearing and high-pitched sounds like this drive me crazy. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/3zau8b/coil_whine_problem_on_dell_precision_5510/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/3zau8b/coil_whine_pro...
  - anuragsoni 10y ago
    I read a lot of posts about the coil while, but I haven't noticed any coil whine in mine.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
bluejekyll 10y ago
Oh crap! I didn't even think of my yubikeys! Thank you for posting this. Edit: a link for ubikey usbc adapter. There's hopefully something cheaper. https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-nano-usbc-bundle/ https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-nano-usbc-bundle/
usaphp 10y ago
Why is everyone keep saying that Esc key is gone, OS X allows you to customize that new touch bar, you can make the Esc button to always show on the same spot you had it before...
- kabdib 10y ago
  From a tactile point, not the same. I've rage-quit keyboards because of nerfed ESC keys before, so this one won't be the first. I put a piece of double-sided sticky tape on my ESC key just to make me notice how often I hit it. When I'm editing, it's all the time. The seeming last-minute addition of a remapping feature for ESC in OSX leads me to believe that the software people at Apple were railroaded by some hardware folks. Hard to believe that whole teams using Emacs / vim were ignored, but I've seen it happen before.
  - dingo_bat 10y ago
    I was thinking "meh I don't use esc at all". Until you reminded me of vim. Then I realized it may well be one of the top 5 most used keys for me.
  - toyg 10y ago
    > leads me to believe that the software people at Apple were railroaded by some hardware folks Well, the guy in charge (Ive) is basically a hardware person.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    > Hard to believe that whole teams using Emacs / vim were ignored What do you use ESC for in Emacs? I used to occasionally use it to hit M-x, but now I use key-chord.el to map 'xx' to M-x and it's all good.
    - kabdib 10y ago
      I used ESC as a M- prefix, of course. Also I use the command key. It's a mix of whatever is convenient and whatever my fingers have learned over a few decades. Maybe Apple has decided to kill off the pesky Emacs and vim users. Yeah. :-)
brudgers 10y ago
Dell Precision mobile workstations can be ordered online [in the US] with Linux. Three year NBD onsite warranty, beefy GPU, and more CPU than will probably fit in your wallet.
eridius 10y ago
I really don't understand why everybody seems to think the Escape key is so important. I almost never hit mine, and since the Touch Bar has a virtual escape key, I don't really see the problem. The best I can figure is everybody complaining is a Vim user, but if you're a Vim user I don't know why you haven't already replaced the cumbersome Escape key with something easier, like binding `jk`, or binding Caps Lock to Control and then using Control-[. So can you explain why everybody is so upset that they don't have a physical Escape key?
- schwede 10y ago
  What about leaving fullscreen mode while playing video?
  - mikeash 10y ago
    The key is still there, on the touch bar. The only problem is that it may be difficult to hit it without looking. That's not a big deal for exiting fullscreen mode.
  - envy2 10y ago
    Pretty sure Cmd+F or similar usually works for that.
- azinman2 10y ago
  Not sure why you're downvoted. I am a vim user and the first thing I do is bind escape to caps lick on any new keyboard. Reaching for the escape key would be terrible for my RSI.
- kabdib 10y ago
  Muscle memory. Nearly 40 years of Emacs muscle memory. Sure, you can rebind it. But this starts to interrupt flow when you switch keyboards. ESC wasn't broken. They broke it. I'm done.
- nathanaldensr 10y ago
  Your argument consists of "people who don't work like I do are wrong" and you imply they should pay the price... for using a key that's been ubiquitous since the beginning of computing time.
ClassyHacker 10y ago
System76 only offers Ubuntu as stock OS.
kevinherron 10y ago
XPS 13, XPS 15, Precision 5100 (same as XPS 15 but configurable in every way)
- x0x0 10y ago
  and you can get 32g ram on a $2600 xps 15
thomaslee 10y ago
> So, what's a decent laptop for running Linux? Good keyboard, good trackpad support, good sound . . . Sadly enough, I think the lack of really great options is what may have pushed some engineers to macs in the first place. :) Admittedly, last I looked was several years ago -- I'm interested to know too! Keep hearing good things about the XPS series, but last I had one it ran hot enough that I couldn't comfortably keep it on my lap.
- caf 10y ago
  My current XPS13 has the opposite problem - it can be uncomfortably cold to the point that I'll often put a cushion or something under it.
- ykxkyxkgc 10y ago
  >I think the lack of really great options is what may have pushed some engineers to macs in the first place Is this what we're calling web developers now?
  - modfodder 10y ago
    Don't know what you're prerequisite for an engineer is but my brother, an aerospace engineer, has been using mac laptops since the 90s. And in the classes he teaches, nearly all the students are using Apple laptops.
  - kabdib 10y ago
    > web developers Dunno about you. I develop native code.
matthewaveryusa 10y ago
Going linux on decent hardware isn't biting the bullet one bit. Thinkpads are seriously nice and the days where you couldn't get your audio and wifi working on linux have been over for ~5 years. Give it a shot, and you just might like it.
- plandis 10y ago
  How's the build quality though? I was under the impression that Thinkpads are mostly plastic. Honestly, one of the best perks of a MacBook is the machined aluminum body. Does Lenovo have anything like that?
  - anuragsoni 10y ago
    Thinkpads are built pretty well. I can't comment on the latest series but i've had good experience with the T series of thinkpads. I still have my T430s around. The hinges and latches are solid, the keyboard is still a joy to type on.
  - honkhonkpants 10y ago
    The metal body of the MacBook means that if you drop it one time the lid never closes right again. Plastic thinkpads don't have that problem. They have different problems that I happen to prefer, like the doors to ports that I never used break off.
  - bryanlarsen 10y ago
    Thinkpads are traditionally made with a cage of magnesium covered with plastic. Best of both worlds: the strength durability and protection of metal combined with the light weight and ability to absorb drops and dings of plastic. Dunno how many still do that, the system may have been dropped in the pursuit of thinness.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      It's been sliding. The T450s is a rock: carbon fiber lid, magnesium body covered in soft-touch plastic. The T460 is a step back--glass-fiber plastic on top of magnesium roll cage. The T460s is not a viable replacement for the T450s because it has no removable battery.
retrogradeorbit 10y ago
I run Ubuntu on a Dell Inspiron 7000 2-in-1. Everything as a laptop works including the touch screen. Sound took an extra driver install, but that was easy. The only thing that doesnt work is the automatic keyboard locking when in tablet mode, but honestly the tablet mode is a bit of a gimmick. It's too heavy for long use as a tablet. I bought it as a laptop, and for that its been really great. I was actually quite surprised. And the price is amazing. $600 USD.
caf 10y ago
I've found the Dell XPS13 to be pretty great.
skywhopper 10y ago
Honestly I like the Macbook Air for Linux... Alas.
x0x0 10y ago
magsafe saves my macbook every 6-8 months I would need at least one if not two extra chargers (one for the office, one I leave in my bag, one for the other room I work in); dongles to connect to an external monitor; and dongles to connect to projectors. All told probably another $350+ on top of the $2.9k (w/o applecare!) the 15-in model costs. They're probably going to save me $3500 by causing me to buy a mid-2015 laptop though. I do love how you can't plug lightning headphones into this thing without another $19 adapter.
- mgiannopoulos 10y ago
  Actually that connector is at $25... http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightning-cable-1-m http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni...
4ad 10y ago
Personally, I am extremely happy it's USB-C only and it has no USB-A ports. USB-A is one of the worst popular connectors in history. USB-C is great. Going full USB-C gives the manufacturers the incentive to produce native USB-C hardware. Don't worry, eventually all hardware will be USB-C and the world will be better off. Yes, you will need to buy new hardware. You're buying a multi thousand dollar machine and you are concerned about the price of a YubiKey?! And for expensive stuff, like professional audio interfaces you can just use a dongle. With a YubiKey dongles are a PITA. For stuff that stays on your desk, not so much. I still use a FireWire audio interface. On the other hand I regret the loss of HDMI. While I can expect to get a new YubiKey, it will take at least a decade for all the HDMI-only TVs and projectors and whatnot to be replaced. Carrying that dongle is a PITA, just like carrying the ethernet dongle.
6nf 10y ago
There will be USB-C YubiKeys in 2017, and in the meanwhile you can still use your adapter. Esc key is still there, it's just not a physical key. You'll have to try it for yourself of course, but since it's on the edge of the strip it's still pretty easy to touch-type it. They keyboard divides users. Some people hate it but I really like my 12" Macbook butterfly keyboard. I can type on it just fine at almost any speed. I do have to admit that it took a while to get used to it.

by kabdib 10y ago

curioussavage 10y ago

Dell xps laptops look sweet. That's what I want next.

anuragsoni 10y ago

I'll add my reply from another thread(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12807826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12807826): I have been using the Dell Developer Edition (Precision 5510) since April. There were a few hiccups because of some driver issues related to their USB-C dock (Correct me if i'm wrong, but I guess this problem was not limited to just their linux laptop?) Ever since upgrading to Ubuntu 16.04 things have been pretty smooth. I believe any distro with a 4.4 series kernel or higher will behave pretty well. Before this I had a Thinkpad T series (The best keyboard experience on a laptop that I have come across), and I never had any problem with running any distribution of Linux. In Summary: I think you cannot go wrong with either a Thinkpad or the Dell Developer edition. They are well made machines with good support for linux.

rayiner 10y ago
Battery life?
- anuragsoni 10y ago
  I have the 1080p display and with tlp installed I can get somewhere in the range of 7-9 hours.
chongli 10y ago
Have they fixed the coil whine[0] issues with them? From what I've seen, a lot of Dell laptops have this issue. I have really sensitive hearing and high-pitched sounds like this drive me crazy. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/3zau8b/coil_whine_problem_on_dell_precision_5510/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/3zau8b/coil_whine_pro...
- anuragsoni 10y ago
  I read a lot of posts about the coil while, but I haven't noticed any coil whine in mine.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

bluejekyll 10y ago

Oh crap! I didn't even think of my yubikeys! Thank you for posting this. Edit: a link for ubikey usbc adapter. There's hopefully something cheaper. https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-nano-usbc-bundle/ https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-nano-usbc-bundle/

usaphp 10y ago

Why is everyone keep saying that Esc key is gone, OS X allows you to customize that new touch bar, you can make the Esc button to always show on the same spot you had it before...

kabdib 10y ago
From a tactile point, not the same. I've rage-quit keyboards because of nerfed ESC keys before, so this one won't be the first. I put a piece of double-sided sticky tape on my ESC key just to make me notice how often I hit it. When I'm editing, it's all the time. The seeming last-minute addition of a remapping feature for ESC in OSX leads me to believe that the software people at Apple were railroaded by some hardware folks. Hard to believe that whole teams using Emacs / vim were ignored, but I've seen it happen before.
- dingo_bat 10y ago
  I was thinking "meh I don't use esc at all". Until you reminded me of vim. Then I realized it may well be one of the top 5 most used keys for me.
- toyg 10y ago
  > leads me to believe that the software people at Apple were railroaded by some hardware folks Well, the guy in charge (Ive) is basically a hardware person.
- rayiner 10y ago
  > Hard to believe that whole teams using Emacs / vim were ignored What do you use ESC for in Emacs? I used to occasionally use it to hit M-x, but now I use key-chord.el to map 'xx' to M-x and it's all good.
  - kabdib 10y ago
    I used ESC as a M- prefix, of course. Also I use the command key. It's a mix of whatever is convenient and whatever my fingers have learned over a few decades. Maybe Apple has decided to kill off the pesky Emacs and vim users. Yeah. :-)

brudgers 10y ago

Dell Precision mobile workstations can be ordered online [in the US] with Linux. Three year NBD onsite warranty, beefy GPU, and more CPU than will probably fit in your wallet.

eridius 10y ago

I really don't understand why everybody seems to think the Escape key is so important. I almost never hit mine, and since the Touch Bar has a virtual escape key, I don't really see the problem. The best I can figure is everybody complaining is a Vim user, but if you're a Vim user I don't know why you haven't already replaced the cumbersome Escape key with something easier, like binding `jk`, or binding Caps Lock to Control and then using Control-[. So can you explain why everybody is so upset that they don't have a physical Escape key?

schwede 10y ago
What about leaving fullscreen mode while playing video?
- mikeash 10y ago
  The key is still there, on the touch bar. The only problem is that it may be difficult to hit it without looking. That's not a big deal for exiting fullscreen mode.
- envy2 10y ago
  Pretty sure Cmd+F or similar usually works for that.
azinman2 10y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. I am a vim user and the first thing I do is bind escape to caps lick on any new keyboard. Reaching for the escape key would be terrible for my RSI.
kabdib 10y ago
Muscle memory. Nearly 40 years of Emacs muscle memory. Sure, you can rebind it. But this starts to interrupt flow when you switch keyboards. ESC wasn't broken. They broke it. I'm done.
nathanaldensr 10y ago
Your argument consists of "people who don't work like I do are wrong" and you imply they should pay the price... for using a key that's been ubiquitous since the beginning of computing time.

ClassyHacker 10y ago

System76 only offers Ubuntu as stock OS.

kevinherron 10y ago

XPS 13, XPS 15, Precision 5100 (same as XPS 15 but configurable in every way)

x0x0 10y ago
and you can get 32g ram on a $2600 xps 15

thomaslee 10y ago

> So, what's a decent laptop for running Linux? Good keyboard, good trackpad support, good sound . . . Sadly enough, I think the lack of really great options is what may have pushed some engineers to macs in the first place. :) Admittedly, last I looked was several years ago -- I'm interested to know too! Keep hearing good things about the XPS series, but last I had one it ran hot enough that I couldn't comfortably keep it on my lap.

caf 10y ago
My current XPS13 has the opposite problem - it can be uncomfortably cold to the point that I'll often put a cushion or something under it.
ykxkyxkgc 10y ago
>I think the lack of really great options is what may have pushed some engineers to macs in the first place Is this what we're calling web developers now?
- modfodder 10y ago
  Don't know what you're prerequisite for an engineer is but my brother, an aerospace engineer, has been using mac laptops since the 90s. And in the classes he teaches, nearly all the students are using Apple laptops.
- kabdib 10y ago
  > web developers Dunno about you. I develop native code.

matthewaveryusa 10y ago

Going linux on decent hardware isn't biting the bullet one bit. Thinkpads are seriously nice and the days where you couldn't get your audio and wifi working on linux have been over for ~5 years. Give it a shot, and you just might like it.

plandis 10y ago
How's the build quality though? I was under the impression that Thinkpads are mostly plastic. Honestly, one of the best perks of a MacBook is the machined aluminum body. Does Lenovo have anything like that?
- anuragsoni 10y ago
  Thinkpads are built pretty well. I can't comment on the latest series but i've had good experience with the T series of thinkpads. I still have my T430s around. The hinges and latches are solid, the keyboard is still a joy to type on.
- honkhonkpants 10y ago
  The metal body of the MacBook means that if you drop it one time the lid never closes right again. Plastic thinkpads don't have that problem. They have different problems that I happen to prefer, like the doors to ports that I never used break off.
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  Thinkpads are traditionally made with a cage of magnesium covered with plastic. Best of both worlds: the strength durability and protection of metal combined with the light weight and ability to absorb drops and dings of plastic. Dunno how many still do that, the system may have been dropped in the pursuit of thinness.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    It's been sliding. The T450s is a rock: carbon fiber lid, magnesium body covered in soft-touch plastic. The T460 is a step back--glass-fiber plastic on top of magnesium roll cage. The T460s is not a viable replacement for the T450s because it has no removable battery.

retrogradeorbit 10y ago

I run Ubuntu on a Dell Inspiron 7000 2-in-1. Everything as a laptop works including the touch screen. Sound took an extra driver install, but that was easy. The only thing that doesnt work is the automatic keyboard locking when in tablet mode, but honestly the tablet mode is a bit of a gimmick. It's too heavy for long use as a tablet. I bought it as a laptop, and for that its been really great. I was actually quite surprised. And the price is amazing. $600 USD.

caf 10y ago

I've found the Dell XPS13 to be pretty great.

skywhopper 10y ago

Honestly I like the Macbook Air for Linux... Alas.

x0x0 10y ago

magsafe saves my macbook every 6-8 months I would need at least one if not two extra chargers (one for the office, one I leave in my bag, one for the other room I work in); dongles to connect to an external monitor; and dongles to connect to projectors. All told probably another $350+ on top of the $2.9k (w/o applecare!) the 15-in model costs. They're probably going to save me $3500 by causing me to buy a mid-2015 laptop though. I do love how you can't plug lightning headphones into this thing without another $19 adapter.

mgiannopoulos 10y ago
Actually that connector is at $25... http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightning-cable-1-m http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni...

4ad 10y ago

Personally, I am extremely happy it's USB-C only and it has no USB-A ports. USB-A is one of the worst popular connectors in history. USB-C is great. Going full USB-C gives the manufacturers the incentive to produce native USB-C hardware. Don't worry, eventually all hardware will be USB-C and the world will be better off. Yes, you will need to buy new hardware. You're buying a multi thousand dollar machine and you are concerned about the price of a YubiKey?! And for expensive stuff, like professional audio interfaces you can just use a dongle. With a YubiKey dongles are a PITA. For stuff that stays on your desk, not so much. I still use a FireWire audio interface. On the other hand I regret the loss of HDMI. While I can expect to get a new YubiKey, it will take at least a decade for all the HDMI-only TVs and projectors and whatnot to be replaced. Carrying that dongle is a PITA, just like carrying the ethernet dongle.

6nf 10y ago

There will be USB-C YubiKeys in 2017, and in the meanwhile you can still use your adapter. Esc key is still there, it's just not a physical key. You'll have to try it for yourself of course, but since it's on the edge of the strip it's still pretty easy to touch-type it. They keyboard divides users. Some people hate it but I really like my 12" Macbook butterfly keyboard. I can type on it just fine at almost any speed. I do have to admit that it took a while to get used to it.