4 ms·

Doesn't seem like an improvement. F9, F10 and F11 have done this quite well for the last 20 years for me. I can use those blindly while looking at the code and

Doesn't seem like an improvement. F9, F10 and F11 have done this quite well for the last 20 years for me. I can use those blindly while looking at the code and using the mouse to hover variables that I want to inspect...

coldtea 10y ago
>F9, F10 and F11 have done this quite well for the last 20 years for me. For what use? Keyboard shortcuts? That's not even half of what this is about. F9, F10 and F11 can't replace a slider, or a color picker, or dialing in e.g. audio filter resonance, or sliding through frames. >I can use those blindly while looking at the code It's NOT for typing/coding. Think pro apps instead (and also lots of non pro, but not text-based apps).
- stinos 10y ago
  Well obviously it's not for coding, but I understand the one you're replying to perfectly. And I think there are hordes of developpers out there coding daily on their MBP. Which are now sort of left alone. Anecdote, though I doubt I'll be the only one for which the lack of F keys is a showstopper - also see other HN comments: after about 5 years on a Dell I was thingking maybe this year to go back to a MBP (even though my last one lasted only 3 years) but seeing I spend a lot of time debugging, which translates to repeatedly hitting F-keys which is burnt into muscle memory, it's just not going to happen. Even if I'd learn to do it with that bar thingie, it's a bit of a waste of time since going back to any other machine the bar isn't there.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Which are now sort of left alone. Why? When were coders big on the function keys? Aren't you supposed to not take your hands from the home row, even with Vim/Emacs?
    - stinos 10y ago
      Coders don't just write code (no, you don't need F keys for that and yes your hands kan stay on the home row) they also debug it (for which the environments I, and seemingly others, use, assigned the F keys many many years ago)
- dmitriid 10y ago
  Let's think pro apps. Every single shortcut shown in the cringe-worthy demos today is already mapped to a well-known keyboard shortcut in the app. And pro users can use those shortcuts without ever having to look down at the keyboard. Final Cut demo claimed that "some of these shortcuts are hard to find in the menus of an advanced app" whereas: 1. the touchbar was displaying the simplest of shortcuts, many of which are already mapped to keyboard shortcuts that professionals use 2. menus in MacOS have a built in search which touchbar lacks, obviously 3. the very next demo of Photoshop showed touchbar shortcuts nested two layers deep and are basically undiscoverable. What the hell is touchbar if not a totally useless gimmick for actual pro users of pro apps?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Every single shortcut shown in the cringe-worthy demos today is already mapped to a well-known keyboard shortcut in the app. And pro users can use those shortcuts without ever having to look down at the keyboard. I'm a pro user (of NLEs) and I don't "use those shortcuts without having to look down at the keyboard". Only a few of them. And it's not because I don't do shortcuts in general (I've used Vim for over 20 years in all its glory). Profesionals use external interfaces all the time, e.g. for color correction, editing etc. While this doesn't fully replace this, it's more than adequate for a lot of what those do, and perfect for editing on the field. It's also not about those "keyboard shortcuts". Flipping through movie frames with variable speed is not a shortcut. Applying filter resonance on a DAW is not done with a shortcut. Heck, this can even change several items together at the same time (e.g. 2 virtual sliders etc). There are literally tons of other things we now use sliders, dials, etc for in Pro programs, and which arbitrary speed and "jump to place" (not just "one click at a time" as shortcuts offer) will be great. >What the hell is touchbar if not a totally useless gimmick for actual pro users of pro apps? It also has no wifi and less space than a Nomad from what I heard. Lame. Anyway, let's give it a year and we'll see how many pro's swear by it.
    - dmitriid 10y ago
      > Profesionals use external interfaces all the time Hence the need for the touchbar is further greatly reduced > It's also not about those "keyboard shortcuts"... There are literally tons of other things we now use sliders, dials, etc for in Pro programs, and which arbitrary speed and "jump to place" Which are delegated to a tiny strip in an awkward location (notice how carefully everyone is holding their fingers at ~90 degrees to the keyboard) controlled by very imprecise finger movements > Anyway, let's give it a year and we'll see how many pro's swear by it. I can agree on that :) We need more actual field experience
jontro 10y ago
I always forget which is which. Now looking at the chrome debugger F8 is used for Pause/Resume. Step Over F10, Step into F11, Step out Shift F11. Hence I use the mouse. As an occasional debugging user it would be a great addition to have this on the keyboard.
- wtetzner 10y ago
  I wonder if it would have been better to just allow different images to be displayed on the existing hardware keys. That way, you have physical keys, and can use them without looking, but when you're in an app that you're unfamiliar with, you can look and see what the keys are for.

coldtea 10y ago

>F9, F10 and F11 have done this quite well for the last 20 years for me. For what use? Keyboard shortcuts? That's not even half of what this is about. F9, F10 and F11 can't replace a slider, or a color picker, or dialing in e.g. audio filter resonance, or sliding through frames. >I can use those blindly while looking at the code It's NOT for typing/coding. Think pro apps instead (and also lots of non pro, but not text-based apps).

stinos 10y ago
Well obviously it's not for coding, but I understand the one you're replying to perfectly. And I think there are hordes of developpers out there coding daily on their MBP. Which are now sort of left alone. Anecdote, though I doubt I'll be the only one for which the lack of F keys is a showstopper - also see other HN comments: after about 5 years on a Dell I was thingking maybe this year to go back to a MBP (even though my last one lasted only 3 years) but seeing I spend a lot of time debugging, which translates to repeatedly hitting F-keys which is burnt into muscle memory, it's just not going to happen. Even if I'd learn to do it with that bar thingie, it's a bit of a waste of time since going back to any other machine the bar isn't there.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Which are now sort of left alone. Why? When were coders big on the function keys? Aren't you supposed to not take your hands from the home row, even with Vim/Emacs?
  - stinos 10y ago
    Coders don't just write code (no, you don't need F keys for that and yes your hands kan stay on the home row) they also debug it (for which the environments I, and seemingly others, use, assigned the F keys many many years ago)
dmitriid 10y ago
Let's think pro apps. Every single shortcut shown in the cringe-worthy demos today is already mapped to a well-known keyboard shortcut in the app. And pro users can use those shortcuts without ever having to look down at the keyboard. Final Cut demo claimed that "some of these shortcuts are hard to find in the menus of an advanced app" whereas: 1. the touchbar was displaying the simplest of shortcuts, many of which are already mapped to keyboard shortcuts that professionals use 2. menus in MacOS have a built in search which touchbar lacks, obviously 3. the very next demo of Photoshop showed touchbar shortcuts nested two layers deep and are basically undiscoverable. What the hell is touchbar if not a totally useless gimmick for actual pro users of pro apps?
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Every single shortcut shown in the cringe-worthy demos today is already mapped to a well-known keyboard shortcut in the app. And pro users can use those shortcuts without ever having to look down at the keyboard. I'm a pro user (of NLEs) and I don't "use those shortcuts without having to look down at the keyboard". Only a few of them. And it's not because I don't do shortcuts in general (I've used Vim for over 20 years in all its glory). Profesionals use external interfaces all the time, e.g. for color correction, editing etc. While this doesn't fully replace this, it's more than adequate for a lot of what those do, and perfect for editing on the field. It's also not about those "keyboard shortcuts". Flipping through movie frames with variable speed is not a shortcut. Applying filter resonance on a DAW is not done with a shortcut. Heck, this can even change several items together at the same time (e.g. 2 virtual sliders etc). There are literally tons of other things we now use sliders, dials, etc for in Pro programs, and which arbitrary speed and "jump to place" (not just "one click at a time" as shortcuts offer) will be great. >What the hell is touchbar if not a totally useless gimmick for actual pro users of pro apps? It also has no wifi and less space than a Nomad from what I heard. Lame. Anyway, let's give it a year and we'll see how many pro's swear by it.
  - dmitriid 10y ago
    > Profesionals use external interfaces all the time Hence the need for the touchbar is further greatly reduced > It's also not about those "keyboard shortcuts"... There are literally tons of other things we now use sliders, dials, etc for in Pro programs, and which arbitrary speed and "jump to place" Which are delegated to a tiny strip in an awkward location (notice how carefully everyone is holding their fingers at ~90 degrees to the keyboard) controlled by very imprecise finger movements > Anyway, let's give it a year and we'll see how many pro's swear by it. I can agree on that :) We need more actual field experience

jontro 10y ago

I always forget which is which. Now looking at the chrome debugger F8 is used for Pause/Resume. Step Over F10, Step into F11, Step out Shift F11. Hence I use the mouse. As an occasional debugging user it would be a great addition to have this on the keyboard.

wtetzner 10y ago
I wonder if it would have been better to just allow different images to be displayed on the existing hardware keys. That way, you have physical keys, and can use them without looking, but when you're in an app that you're unfamiliar with, you can look and see what the keys are for.