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>> If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable a

>> If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable after 10. Why do so many Mac users think the presence of a touch screen all of a sudden means using it full time? I got a Surface Pro when I was still a predominantly Mac user and I only used the touch screen when appropriate, which was for a fraction of a second every now and then. And it worked great. Using a touchscreen is definitely better than a touchpad in a lot of scenarios because of the ability to directly manipulate content instead of having to navigate to it.

coldtea 10y ago
>Why do so many Mac users think the presence of a touch screen all of a sudden means using it full time? Who said full time? Full time it would be unbearable in 1 minute. I said unbearable in 10 minutes with casual use in mind: raising your hand now and then to click this or that button.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros. And it's not as though you can't continue to use the keyboard, touchpad and/or mouse. I'll admit, when the Surface Pro first came out, I mocked the touchscreen too. I thought it would create Gorilla Arm. Then I actually got one and used it for an extended period of time. You don't even notice that you're touching the screen.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros. It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it. Now, if it was a detachable screen, like the Surface, that could work, but a laptop screen you have vertical to the keyboard.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      >> It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it. I get that it might not be for everyone, but a LOT of keyboard cases have been sold to iPad and iPad Pro users (and many of these cases prop up the iPad screen vertically). And keep in mind that iOS pretty much necessitates use of the touch screen more than Windows 8/10 does. So there must be a LOT of people who would be OK with that mode of use. With respect to the Surface, I use it with the keyboard attached 99% of the time so it's pretty much vertical all the time. It's not even remotely uncomfortable or tiring in normal use.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >I get that it might not be for everyone, but a LOT of keyboard cases have been sold to iPad and iPad Pro users (and many of these cases prop up the iPad screen vertically). Yes, but those are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. Not for doing work e.g. graphics, etc with the iPad vertically held.
        slantyyz 10y ago
        >> Yes, but those are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. Not for doing work e.g. graphics, etc with the iPad vertically held. You aren't really suggesting that writing is not work, are you? And why would Schiller make a point of mentioning the touch bar integration with Office and iWork?
        coldtea 10y ago
        >You aren't really suggesting that writing is not work, are you? No, I wrote "E.g. graphics" as a parenthetical expression to give an example of the kind of work they dont use those cases for. That is, what I wrote amounts to: "Yes, but those [cases] are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. [They are not using the cases] for doing work [like graphics] with the iPad vertically held". >And why would Schiller make a point of mentioning the touch bar integration with Office and iWork? Because Schiller made this point about a laptop, and even more so a laptop with a flat horizontal strip. Whereas what I said is that it's tedious for people to do that (touch interaction) on a vertical screen. In Schiller's example there's Office and iWork but no vertical touch screen -- just the strip, and the regular screen you handle with the mouse/trackpad (that is, without having your hands in the air to touch the screen).
  - Anasufovic 10y ago
    Yeah, I feel as if people try to hate touch screens because Apple doesn't think its right. Even though iPad users with keyboards use the interface. It requires a transition period but it becomes second nature after a while. One of the important things for me with something like the surface is when you finally dock it to use a full setup you don't lose any capability. What happens when you do this with the new mbp? Is a new apple keyboard in the works? I was considering getting the new mbp this time around thinking this was going to be an enhanced media button bar. But now I'm definitely back on the sidelines
- 21 10y ago
  One day Apple will add a touch screen and everybody will be like "this is amazing, how did I live without this until now". Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger.
  - comex 10y ago
    Yet when Apple revived the old screen size with the iPhone SE, it sold extremely well. Some of that is the price, but there's clearly a significant contingent of users who prefer smaller screens.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      I found it mind boggling that they dropped the older screen size in the first place instead of having 3 screen sizes like they do now.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger. There's this idea that people will buy everything Apple does, or that people put down things until Apple does them. First, Apple started from nearly bankrupt in 1997 and so. People clearly didn't just buy what Apple put out. What build Apple's fortune was not some hundreds of millions of "sheep" who magically bought everything Apple put out, but a steady stream of products that increasingly more people bought. People didn't just buy everything Apple put out. People had to be convinced, from the first post-jobs stuff (Cube, iMac) to start buying them -- increasingly over time. The iPod took years to really take off, for example. Along with this idea, there's this other idea that Apple 'fans' will put down a feature until Apple releases something that has it. Those saying that seem to forget that the internet is full of people, and the people who said "the iPhone doesn't need a bigger screen" are not necessarily the ones who bought one after Apple released it. Apple still sells tens of millions of non-plus iPhones, to people who don't really like the large screen, and even put out the old 4" model again (iPhone SE). I got a Plus and it's still a usability disaster on that regard. One hand use (which is what I mostly used to do on the smaller models) is pretty much out. But I coped mostly because I appreciate the extra ~50mm camera lens, and for reading stuff while commuting etc (with two hands).
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  This isn't how you use a touch screen on a laptop. I don't know why you're so insistent on this narrative but it's false. Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction. You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer. I thought it was stupid at first and now I miss it when I use my MacBook.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    After getting a Surface Pro, I would constantly start swiping up and down on my Macbook Pro's screen thinking I could scroll. I still do that on other non-touch laptop screens too.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction. That's my point exactly. A laptop with a touch screen is not convenient, unless it can be somehow turned into a tabled (Surface does it IIRC). >You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer. Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread. It doesn't work for me at all (at least when sitting on the desk with the laptop). I don't want to raise my heads and hold them to the screen, and I'm not that hot into touching the screen with my fingers either.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      >> Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread. On a real touchscreen laptop or simulating on a non-touchscreen laptop? I think it makes a real difference to sit down with an open mind and go through some real use cases on a laptop with a working touchscreen (and the software you'd actually use). You'll realize that you're only using when it is appropriate for only a few seconds at a time, if that. And there will probably be huge time gaps (hours, days even) where you might not use it. But in the odd time when you need it, you're often glad that it's there.

coldtea 10y ago

>Why do so many Mac users think the presence of a touch screen all of a sudden means using it full time? Who said full time? Full time it would be unbearable in 1 minute. I said unbearable in 10 minutes with casual use in mind: raising your hand now and then to click this or that button.

slantyyz 10y ago
I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros. And it's not as though you can't continue to use the keyboard, touchpad and/or mouse. I'll admit, when the Surface Pro first came out, I mocked the touchscreen too. I thought it would create Gorilla Arm. Then I actually got one and used it for an extended period of time. You don't even notice that you're touching the screen.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros. It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it. Now, if it was a detachable screen, like the Surface, that could work, but a laptop screen you have vertical to the keyboard.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    >> It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it. I get that it might not be for everyone, but a LOT of keyboard cases have been sold to iPad and iPad Pro users (and many of these cases prop up the iPad screen vertically). And keep in mind that iOS pretty much necessitates use of the touch screen more than Windows 8/10 does. So there must be a LOT of people who would be OK with that mode of use. With respect to the Surface, I use it with the keyboard attached 99% of the time so it's pretty much vertical all the time. It's not even remotely uncomfortable or tiring in normal use.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >I get that it might not be for everyone, but a LOT of keyboard cases have been sold to iPad and iPad Pro users (and many of these cases prop up the iPad screen vertically). Yes, but those are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. Not for doing work e.g. graphics, etc with the iPad vertically held.
      - slantyyz 10y ago
        >> Yes, but those are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. Not for doing work e.g. graphics, etc with the iPad vertically held. You aren't really suggesting that writing is not work, are you? And why would Schiller make a point of mentioning the touch bar integration with Office and iWork?
        coldtea 10y ago
        >You aren't really suggesting that writing is not work, are you? No, I wrote "E.g. graphics" as a parenthetical expression to give an example of the kind of work they dont use those cases for. That is, what I wrote amounts to: "Yes, but those [cases] are for writing -- ie. using the iPad laptop style. [They are not using the cases] for doing work [like graphics] with the iPad vertically held". >And why would Schiller make a point of mentioning the touch bar integration with Office and iWork? Because Schiller made this point about a laptop, and even more so a laptop with a flat horizontal strip. Whereas what I said is that it's tedious for people to do that (touch interaction) on a vertical screen. In Schiller's example there's Office and iWork but no vertical touch screen -- just the strip, and the regular screen you handle with the mouse/trackpad (that is, without having your hands in the air to touch the screen).
- Anasufovic 10y ago
  Yeah, I feel as if people try to hate touch screens because Apple doesn't think its right. Even though iPad users with keyboards use the interface. It requires a transition period but it becomes second nature after a while. One of the important things for me with something like the surface is when you finally dock it to use a full setup you don't lose any capability. What happens when you do this with the new mbp? Is a new apple keyboard in the works? I was considering getting the new mbp this time around thinking this was going to be an enhanced media button bar. But now I'm definitely back on the sidelines
21 10y ago
One day Apple will add a touch screen and everybody will be like "this is amazing, how did I live without this until now". Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger.
- comex 10y ago
  Yet when Apple revived the old screen size with the iPhone SE, it sold extremely well. Some of that is the price, but there's clearly a significant contingent of users who prefer smaller screens.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    I found it mind boggling that they dropped the older screen size in the first place instead of having 3 screen sizes like they do now.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger. There's this idea that people will buy everything Apple does, or that people put down things until Apple does them. First, Apple started from nearly bankrupt in 1997 and so. People clearly didn't just buy what Apple put out. What build Apple's fortune was not some hundreds of millions of "sheep" who magically bought everything Apple put out, but a steady stream of products that increasingly more people bought. People didn't just buy everything Apple put out. People had to be convinced, from the first post-jobs stuff (Cube, iMac) to start buying them -- increasingly over time. The iPod took years to really take off, for example. Along with this idea, there's this other idea that Apple 'fans' will put down a feature until Apple releases something that has it. Those saying that seem to forget that the internet is full of people, and the people who said "the iPhone doesn't need a bigger screen" are not necessarily the ones who bought one after Apple released it. Apple still sells tens of millions of non-plus iPhones, to people who don't really like the large screen, and even put out the old 4" model again (iPhone SE). I got a Plus and it's still a usability disaster on that regard. One hand use (which is what I mostly used to do on the smaller models) is pretty much out. But I coped mostly because I appreciate the extra ~50mm camera lens, and for reading stuff while commuting etc (with two hands).
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
This isn't how you use a touch screen on a laptop. I don't know why you're so insistent on this narrative but it's false. Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction. You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer. I thought it was stupid at first and now I miss it when I use my MacBook.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  After getting a Surface Pro, I would constantly start swiping up and down on my Macbook Pro's screen thinking I could scroll. I still do that on other non-touch laptop screens too.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction. That's my point exactly. A laptop with a touch screen is not convenient, unless it can be somehow turned into a tabled (Surface does it IIRC). >You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer. Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread. It doesn't work for me at all (at least when sitting on the desk with the laptop). I don't want to raise my heads and hold them to the screen, and I'm not that hot into touching the screen with my fingers either.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    >> Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread. On a real touchscreen laptop or simulating on a non-touchscreen laptop? I think it makes a real difference to sit down with an open mind and go through some real use cases on a laptop with a working touchscreen (and the software you'd actually use). You'll realize that you're only using when it is appropriate for only a few seconds at a time, if that. And there will probably be huge time gaps (hours, days even) where you might not use it. But in the odd time when you need it, you're often glad that it's there.