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You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts. Anything that ruins th

You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts. Anything that ruins their calm becomes an issue. Like any hobby it becomes overpowering obsessive and competitive. Turns out meditation/religion/spirituality doesn't actually change human nature. Hell, read /r/meditation sometime and see the subtle poking they do at each other. Its hilarious to read comments with a very arrogant and commanding tone about how modest and ego free they are. I think you're playing up a 'no true scotsman' card here. I think most, if not all, people into meditation and spirituality become like this. If this stuff worked like magic, everyone would be doing it. It turns out it has a lot of downsides and often changes people for the worse. Maybe in some 'spiritual' way they're better people, but they still need to work with the real world and they seem pretty terrible at it. The guys I see losing their shit in public aren't poor people with bad social skills, but upper/middle class men and women who felt their entitlements challenged. One of those entitlements is feeling 'chill' about things. The woman doing yoga and meditation everyday is also the woman screaming at the kid at subway for not putting on enough olives on her sandwich. I've pressed these people before and I usually get a "I can't deal with unspiritual people" excuse. Its incredible how the cult of calm brings out the worst of people. I'm not even going to go into how this lifestyle is linked with things like anti-vax, reiki healing, crazy diets, cleanses, homeopathy, etc and other questionable things that can, and do, victimize children. I think the idea that all meditators, or even those who do it 'correctly', become some kind of super-being to be pretty silly. Its obvious the effect it has is pretty subtle and the kind of people who buy into it are often insufferable and pretentious. I think its okay to learn as a quick-ish stress reducer, but the idea of a daily hour-long practice and all the accoutrements surrounding it is fairly absurd and leads to pretty stupid places.

ZeroFries 10y ago
I think you're describing New-Age cultists and not serious, pragmatic Buddhists, for example. Calmness is not enforced, passion can and does arise, but one is not attached to calmness nor passion. They simply come and go. This is meditation.
- tripzilch 10y ago
  You can even do meditation properly without buying into Buddhism. Although you're not going to avoid running into it entirely, so at some point you'll find someone talking to you about silly religious stuff like "prevent suffering to all living beings, animal, plant and mineral" :-) (even though the "prevent suffering" idea has some real interesting and beautiful implications, when they add "and mineral", it's like they played too much 20-questions or something)
westoncb 10y ago
It seems like the premise of your complaint is that there isn't a way do it correctly/incorrectly, therefore all practitioners can be classed together and the practice in general may be dismissed if any of its followers exhibit undesirable and related properties. But you never give an argument for why there would be no variation in instruction, actual execution of practice, background ideologies, etc. > I'm not even going to go into how this lifestyle is linked with things like anti-vax, reiki healing, crazy diets, cleanses, etc Meanwhile, that comment makes it clear that you are speaking of a very particular subset of practitioners. You are referring to a New Age-derived subculture here: their attributes aren't derived from practicing meditation, they probably practice some form of meditation because their subculture values it (i.e. by labeling themselves meditators, they gain cultural currency. There is incentive to exploit the practice for social purposes to begin with). There are also many other practitioners who view meditation as totally unrelated to anything like spirituality, who understand its operation in purely psychological terms. And there are solemnly religious folks who take it very seriously and probably do not cavalierly exploit it for social gain as you describe.
squeaky-clean 10y ago
> If this stuff worked like magic, everyone would be doing it. It works like magic the same way exercising works like magic to build you muscles. Or in other words, it's not magic, and takes a long time and a lot of self discipline. That's why everyone isn't doing it.
tripzilch 10y ago
> You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts So, when you said > I've been into meditation for quite some time and it really does make you much more entitled. You get complacent with low stress and it becomes your new norm. When that new norm gets broken its very jarring and (..) you really meant to say that you too have bought into that "lifestyle" for quite some time now? It's not a "no true Scotsman" fallacy if you only implement the easy, happy, sweet half of serious practice. It's not even hard, you just need to include the unhappy emotions in the practice and not ignore them. All the introductory texts and lessons are very clear about this. If someone somehow manages to miss that, then yes, it's not a fallacy to point out they're doing it wrong. "It doesn't work!", "Well you're half-assing it.", "Ah, pffft, no true Scotsman! I'm just going to assume it makes people entitled." Interestingly, literally no one I know who is into meditation, are "like this". As an, all of them are quite aware that negative emotions are supposed to be accepted as an important part of the practice (it actually makes them easier to deal with, what's not to like). But then, I also have zero patience for people that eat the menu like this, so I probably filter and not get to know them enough to find out they're really into the "lifestyle" of happy floaty.

ZeroFries 10y ago

I think you're describing New-Age cultists and not serious, pragmatic Buddhists, for example. Calmness is not enforced, passion can and does arise, but one is not attached to calmness nor passion. They simply come and go. This is meditation.

tripzilch 10y ago
You can even do meditation properly without buying into Buddhism. Although you're not going to avoid running into it entirely, so at some point you'll find someone talking to you about silly religious stuff like "prevent suffering to all living beings, animal, plant and mineral" :-) (even though the "prevent suffering" idea has some real interesting and beautiful implications, when they add "and mineral", it's like they played too much 20-questions or something)

westoncb 10y ago

It seems like the premise of your complaint is that there isn't a way do it correctly/incorrectly, therefore all practitioners can be classed together and the practice in general may be dismissed if any of its followers exhibit undesirable and related properties. But you never give an argument for why there would be no variation in instruction, actual execution of practice, background ideologies, etc. > I'm not even going to go into how this lifestyle is linked with things like anti-vax, reiki healing, crazy diets, cleanses, etc Meanwhile, that comment makes it clear that you are speaking of a very particular subset of practitioners. You are referring to a New Age-derived subculture here: their attributes aren't derived from practicing meditation, they probably practice some form of meditation because their subculture values it (i.e. by labeling themselves meditators, they gain cultural currency. There is incentive to exploit the practice for social purposes to begin with). There are also many other practitioners who view meditation as totally unrelated to anything like spirituality, who understand its operation in purely psychological terms. And there are solemnly religious folks who take it very seriously and probably do not cavalierly exploit it for social gain as you describe.

squeaky-clean 10y ago

> If this stuff worked like magic, everyone would be doing it. It works like magic the same way exercising works like magic to build you muscles. Or in other words, it's not magic, and takes a long time and a lot of self discipline. That's why everyone isn't doing it.

tripzilch 10y ago

> You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts So, when you said > I've been into meditation for quite some time and it really does make you much more entitled. You get complacent with low stress and it becomes your new norm. When that new norm gets broken its very jarring and (..) you really meant to say that you too have bought into that "lifestyle" for quite some time now? It's not a "no true Scotsman" fallacy if you only implement the easy, happy, sweet half of serious practice. It's not even hard, you just need to include the unhappy emotions in the practice and not ignore them. All the introductory texts and lessons are very clear about this. If someone somehow manages to miss that, then yes, it's not a fallacy to point out they're doing it wrong. "It doesn't work!", "Well you're half-assing it.", "Ah, pffft, no true Scotsman! I'm just going to assume it makes people entitled." Interestingly, literally no one I know who is into meditation, are "like this". As an, all of them are quite aware that negative emotions are supposed to be accepted as an important part of the practice (it actually makes them easier to deal with, what's not to like). But then, I also have zero patience for people that eat the menu like this, so I probably filter and not get to know them enough to find out they're really into the "lifestyle" of happy floaty.