7 ms·

(Posted in another thread, that probably will not make it as high as this) I think conceptually this is really neat, but it could potentially suffer from one m

by dchuk 10y ago

(Posted in another thread, that probably will not make it as high as this) I think conceptually this is really neat, but it could potentially suffer from one major flaw: I hardly ever look down at my keyboard. A flat, digital screen containing changing buttons does not cater well to touch typists, of which you can reasonably assume most are who use a macbook pro. Touch ID is sweet though.

manuelflara 10y ago
Yeah, I thought the same thing (specially since 95% of the time I'm using my laptop, I actually have it closed, hooked up to a screen and with external keyboard and mouse). But I guess this will be useful for most casual users, since they often look down to their keyboards (and to be honest, the keyboard and the screen aren't that far apart in a laptop) and who don't usually use/know hotkeys for common actions they perform, and which now they'll have access to through the touch bar. But for most developers, yeah this seems like a gimmick. And yes, Touch ID is sweet. That 3 second payment demo was great.
- jonknee 10y ago
  > But I guess this will be useful for most casual users, since they often look down to their keyboards Which is weird it's a feature exclusively on their "Pro" line of laptops.
  - glassx 10y ago
    Well, there are many kinds of "professionals". Designers, photographers or people working with audio/video production don't really need touch-typing. And those are arguably the kind of "Pro" users Apple is targeting, not coders.
    - jonknee 10y ago
      And those are almost all people who don't use a 13-15" screen for their work whenever they can help it. Which makes the touch bar useless.
- dsl 10y ago
  > since 95% of the time I'm using my laptop, I actually have it closed, hooked up to a screen and with external keyboard and mouse I can't believe they put a radio in my car since 95% of the time I just leave it in my driveway and take the bus.
MPSimmons 10y ago
You are making the assumption that they care about sophisticated users, and I can't see any evidence that they have for quite a while.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  You seem to have conflated sophistication with fear of change. The history of technology shows this fear is misplaced. If the interface provided is compelling, most people will adapt. Some will long for the old ways to be the only ways, but that's never been a segment of desire that gets much attention for what I assume are obvious reasons.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    You seem to have conflated fear of change with desire not to have useful functionality removed and replaced with functionality that might prove useful. The touch strip is cool, but it suddenly means looking down at the keyboard to use it, and the loss of the tactile sensation of the keys. Maybe it's a net gain for some people. For me, it's at best 2 steps forward, 1 step back. It's a mixed blessing.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      It doesn't really rebut me to twist up a bunch of semantics to make it seem like something is being taken away from you by the fact that Apple is making a product you don't like.
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        I'm just saying that it's a change that I dislike on an emotional level, and that I believe that needing to look at my computers controls to use them will lead to a permanent net decrease in comfort using the machine. They're making a product that I don't like, and that's not a new phenomenon. Categorically, I dislike things that seem like change for the sake of change, and I dislike things that feel like a company herding my behavior in the direction they want me to go. On the other hand, I like progress. In my opinion, features like this are certainly change, but I doubt that they're progress. That is, I think that it both adds and removes features. Fear of change isn't a bad thing, in and of itself. I think the point that we disagree on the strongest is whether Apple's new hardware represents actual progress, or merely change.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
leejoramo 10y ago
I live in terminal about a third of my day. I seldom use the function keys for anything other than adjusting the volume and brightness. I can't remember the last time I needed to use a pure Function key in any app. I am a keyboard junky. I have long used LaunchBar (since OS X Beta), Keyboard Maestro and other utilities to do almost everything on my computer and while keeping my hands on the home keys. And I mapped the CAPS LOCK to ESC many years ago. For me the current Function Keys are mostly wasted space. I am not sure how useful the Touch Bar will be for me, but I feel it will be more useful than the current setup. (corrected: keeping hands "on" home)
- m3rc 10y ago
  Do you never enter apps like htop? Even without function keys for filter and search you at least would need an esc key to quit. I have esc remapped to capslock on my laptop, but how easy is it to remap keys in OSX?
  - r-s 10y ago
    Its very easy to remap keys in OSX. Its in the Keyboard Settings.
    - m3rc 10y ago
      so the understanding here is that everyone is just going to remap esc?
      - leejoramo 10y ago
        Up until macOS 10.12, it was difficult to remap the ESC to CAP LOCK. Now it is an option in the keyboard settings. My biggest complaint is since macOS Sierra, it is now so hard to create a Hyper-key. http://brettterpstra.com/2016/09/29/a-better-hyper-key-hack-for-sierra/ http://brettterpstra.com/2016/09/29/a-better-hyper-key-hack-...
  - leejoramo 10y ago
    You got me there. htop is probably the one terminal app that I regularly use that has important FN keys. Still I bet only one out of 5 times do I actually use the FN keys in htop. I suspect that of the amount that I use them, Apple's access to old function keys via the Touch Bar will be fine for me. (And I can always pull out my Happy Hacker Keyboard)
gutnor 10y ago
I touch type, I hardly ever look down at my keyboard ... except for stuff like switching the volume off, brightness, or the rare key combo that uses a function key. So there is gradient even in non-casual users. I would have cried with you if my OS was Windows.
coldtea 10y ago
>A flat, digital screen containing changing buttons does not cater well to touch typists Well, it's obviously NOT meant for touch typing workloads! This is not something to compete with Ctr-A-Alt-J-K-B of Emacs, or ^{"4j of Vim, or for writers to use. It's for professional apps with lots of special dials, sliders, etc -- stuff useful from the creative industry (DAWs, NLEs, etc) to use cases such as medical equipment controls, etc (another industry that uses some special control surfaces and stuff).
audunw 10y ago
The touchbar is close to the screen though. Is it really looking down much more than just looking at the bottom of the screen?
grennis 10y ago
Not to mention I work a lot of the time with my macbook closed connected to external display. What good is touchbar then? Oh wait, my external display is Thunderbolt display, now a $1k paperweight because I bought into the Apple closed ecosystem.
chadcmulligan 10y ago
> I hardly ever look down at my keyboard I was thinking the same - If i need extra controls for my app then the app provides them and use my trackpad with my eyes fixed on my screen, like this isn't hard. Seems gadgetry for gadgets sake, disappointing. If I'm paying hundreds of dollars extra for this to, which seems to be the case, then I think I'll pass unfortunately.

by dchuk 10y ago

manuelflara 10y ago

Yeah, I thought the same thing (specially since 95% of the time I'm using my laptop, I actually have it closed, hooked up to a screen and with external keyboard and mouse). But I guess this will be useful for most casual users, since they often look down to their keyboards (and to be honest, the keyboard and the screen aren't that far apart in a laptop) and who don't usually use/know hotkeys for common actions they perform, and which now they'll have access to through the touch bar. But for most developers, yeah this seems like a gimmick. And yes, Touch ID is sweet. That 3 second payment demo was great.

jonknee 10y ago
> But I guess this will be useful for most casual users, since they often look down to their keyboards Which is weird it's a feature exclusively on their "Pro" line of laptops.
- glassx 10y ago
  Well, there are many kinds of "professionals". Designers, photographers or people working with audio/video production don't really need touch-typing. And those are arguably the kind of "Pro" users Apple is targeting, not coders.
  - jonknee 10y ago
    And those are almost all people who don't use a 13-15" screen for their work whenever they can help it. Which makes the touch bar useless.
dsl 10y ago
> since 95% of the time I'm using my laptop, I actually have it closed, hooked up to a screen and with external keyboard and mouse I can't believe they put a radio in my car since 95% of the time I just leave it in my driveway and take the bus.

MPSimmons 10y ago

You are making the assumption that they care about sophisticated users, and I can't see any evidence that they have for quite a while.

oldmanjay 10y ago
You seem to have conflated sophistication with fear of change. The history of technology shows this fear is misplaced. If the interface provided is compelling, most people will adapt. Some will long for the old ways to be the only ways, but that's never been a segment of desire that gets much attention for what I assume are obvious reasons.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  You seem to have conflated fear of change with desire not to have useful functionality removed and replaced with functionality that might prove useful. The touch strip is cool, but it suddenly means looking down at the keyboard to use it, and the loss of the tactile sensation of the keys. Maybe it's a net gain for some people. For me, it's at best 2 steps forward, 1 step back. It's a mixed blessing.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    It doesn't really rebut me to twist up a bunch of semantics to make it seem like something is being taken away from you by the fact that Apple is making a product you don't like.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      I'm just saying that it's a change that I dislike on an emotional level, and that I believe that needing to look at my computers controls to use them will lead to a permanent net decrease in comfort using the machine. They're making a product that I don't like, and that's not a new phenomenon. Categorically, I dislike things that seem like change for the sake of change, and I dislike things that feel like a company herding my behavior in the direction they want me to go. On the other hand, I like progress. In my opinion, features like this are certainly change, but I doubt that they're progress. That is, I think that it both adds and removes features. Fear of change isn't a bad thing, in and of itself. I think the point that we disagree on the strongest is whether Apple's new hardware represents actual progress, or merely change.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

leejoramo 10y ago

I live in terminal about a third of my day. I seldom use the function keys for anything other than adjusting the volume and brightness. I can't remember the last time I needed to use a pure Function key in any app. I am a keyboard junky. I have long used LaunchBar (since OS X Beta), Keyboard Maestro and other utilities to do almost everything on my computer and while keeping my hands on the home keys. And I mapped the CAPS LOCK to ESC many years ago. For me the current Function Keys are mostly wasted space. I am not sure how useful the Touch Bar will be for me, but I feel it will be more useful than the current setup. (corrected: keeping hands "on" home)

m3rc 10y ago
Do you never enter apps like htop? Even without function keys for filter and search you at least would need an esc key to quit. I have esc remapped to capslock on my laptop, but how easy is it to remap keys in OSX?
- r-s 10y ago
  Its very easy to remap keys in OSX. Its in the Keyboard Settings.
  - m3rc 10y ago
    so the understanding here is that everyone is just going to remap esc?
    - leejoramo 10y ago
      Up until macOS 10.12, it was difficult to remap the ESC to CAP LOCK. Now it is an option in the keyboard settings. My biggest complaint is since macOS Sierra, it is now so hard to create a Hyper-key. http://brettterpstra.com/2016/09/29/a-better-hyper-key-hack-for-sierra/ http://brettterpstra.com/2016/09/29/a-better-hyper-key-hack-...
- leejoramo 10y ago
  You got me there. htop is probably the one terminal app that I regularly use that has important FN keys. Still I bet only one out of 5 times do I actually use the FN keys in htop. I suspect that of the amount that I use them, Apple's access to old function keys via the Touch Bar will be fine for me. (And I can always pull out my Happy Hacker Keyboard)

gutnor 10y ago

I touch type, I hardly ever look down at my keyboard ... except for stuff like switching the volume off, brightness, or the rare key combo that uses a function key. So there is gradient even in non-casual users. I would have cried with you if my OS was Windows.

coldtea 10y ago

>A flat, digital screen containing changing buttons does not cater well to touch typists Well, it's obviously NOT meant for touch typing workloads! This is not something to compete with Ctr-A-Alt-J-K-B of Emacs, or ^{"4j of Vim, or for writers to use. It's for professional apps with lots of special dials, sliders, etc -- stuff useful from the creative industry (DAWs, NLEs, etc) to use cases such as medical equipment controls, etc (another industry that uses some special control surfaces and stuff).

audunw 10y ago

The touchbar is close to the screen though. Is it really looking down much more than just looking at the bottom of the screen?

grennis 10y ago

Not to mention I work a lot of the time with my macbook closed connected to external display. What good is touchbar then? Oh wait, my external display is Thunderbolt display, now a $1k paperweight because I bought into the Apple closed ecosystem.

chadcmulligan 10y ago

> I hardly ever look down at my keyboard I was thinking the same - If i need extra controls for my app then the app provides them and use my trackpad with my eyes fixed on my screen, like this isn't hard. Seems gadgetry for gadgets sake, disappointing. If I'm paying hundreds of dollars extra for this to, which seems to be the case, then I think I'll pass unfortunately.