4 ms·

Many seem to be angry about the OLED toolbar, but I'm getting unusually exciting. Just imagine the controls for your debugging environment on it. Or pressing a

Many seem to be angry about the OLED toolbar, but I'm getting unusually exciting. Just imagine the controls for your debugging environment on it. Or pressing a modifier and the display actually showing you a different set of shortcuts. I had actually been looking around at programmable keyboards with active displays on every key. I want to switch to a keyboard-only workflow, but it is actually incredibly hard if you use a few applications. There's no standard for shortcuts, and not even a standard for defining custom shortcuts. I'm hoping they're also launching a standalone keyboard in that style. I could also imagine there will be transparent "screen protectors" that you could apply with raised bumps so as to give tactile feedback. At that point, I see no reason for vim users to complain (saying that as a vim user). Not that it will be too hard to find the left edge of the bar.

igravious 10y ago
> I'm hoping they're also launching a standalone keyboard in that style. Intriguing. Though if the touch bar is context sensitive how is your standalone keyboard going to be able to know what context you are in? Genuine question!
- matt4077 10y ago
  Not an expert on keyboard protocols, but I'm pretty sure both bluetooth and usb allow two-way communication. Actually, it must already be happening, considering the Caps Lock indicator is set by the OS, not the keyboard itself (which is why people use it as a sort of brain-stem reflex test when the computer locks up).
  - igravious 10y ago
    I dunno. I'm pretty sure the flow of information is one way. I could be wrong. :( I think the keyboard logic circuit board handles the Caps Lock indicator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Connection
ch4s3 10y ago
I hope its mappable. If it is, it could be great for debugging like you suggest, interacting with chrome devtools, terminal tabs, etc.
skeptic2718 10y ago
I have my eyes focused on the screen, now I have to look down, understand what's on the touch bar, then look back up. It sucks.
- lojack 10y ago
  I noticed the presenter doing this a few times. It definitely doesn't seem like a power-user thing to me. That said, I'll be holding off on a strong opinion on this until I get to use it. I could see it being either a usability nightmare or something super useful.
- derefr 10y ago
  Don't think of it as part of the keyboard; think of it as more screen, that happens to be touchable. Like the bottom half of a Nintendo DS.
falcolas 10y ago
> At that point, I see no reason for vim users to complain (saying that as a vim user). Other than the escape button is only available contextually, and has moved? Other than the function keys some of us use as more mappings (such as in insert mode) now require looking at the keyboard and using a chord (Fn-touchbar). Of course, we can get used to it. Of course, we can just use another keyboard. Of course, we can learn alternate key bindings for escape. The change was unnecessary. Other companies have tried it and given way back to physical F keys - that should say something right there. Here's a thought: instead of removing keys for a touchbar, why not make the screen touchable? That way you don't need extra controls and interfaces to allow for scrubbing, volume control, application launching, etc.
- matt4077 10y ago
  > Other than the escape button is only available contextually, and has moved? what's the problem with "if context == vim -> show ESC". And that was at the far left as it has always been. > Other companies have tried it Tell that to Blackberry, or those Microsoft tablets. > Here's a thought: instead of removing keys for a touchbar, why not make the screen touchable? That would actually feel pretty useless. I'd always have my hands closer to the mouse or touchpad, and it feels really awkward to reach out to the screen.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Vim isn't an app - I'm guessing the context would have to be identified by Terminal and passed up the chain. Terminal isn't always the best at identifying the current running process for its window/tab names; relying on it to properly identify that Vim is running doesn't sound like a winning strategy. > And that was at the far left as it has always been. No, it's indented by half the width of the tilde key, whereas it was directly above the tilde key before. > Tell that to Blackberry, or those Microsoft tablets. Those are touchscreen devices, where you can touch the actual controls on the screen. I haven't yet seen another laptop with a touchbar which kept the touchbar for more than one generation. > I'd always have my hands closer to the mouse or touchpad Then you could continue to use the mouse and touchpad. The bottom of the screen is only about another inch or two above the touchbar as it stands now, and much more flexible in terms of what can appear there (such as website controls).
samat 10y ago
Reminded me this keyboard, made by Russian designer Lebedev many years ago http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/ http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/

igravious 10y ago

> I'm hoping they're also launching a standalone keyboard in that style. Intriguing. Though if the touch bar is context sensitive how is your standalone keyboard going to be able to know what context you are in? Genuine question!

matt4077 10y ago
Not an expert on keyboard protocols, but I'm pretty sure both bluetooth and usb allow two-way communication. Actually, it must already be happening, considering the Caps Lock indicator is set by the OS, not the keyboard itself (which is why people use it as a sort of brain-stem reflex test when the computer locks up).
- igravious 10y ago
  I dunno. I'm pretty sure the flow of information is one way. I could be wrong. :( I think the keyboard logic circuit board handles the Caps Lock indicator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Connection

ch4s3 10y ago

I hope its mappable. If it is, it could be great for debugging like you suggest, interacting with chrome devtools, terminal tabs, etc.

skeptic2718 10y ago

I have my eyes focused on the screen, now I have to look down, understand what's on the touch bar, then look back up. It sucks.

lojack 10y ago
I noticed the presenter doing this a few times. It definitely doesn't seem like a power-user thing to me. That said, I'll be holding off on a strong opinion on this until I get to use it. I could see it being either a usability nightmare or something super useful.
derefr 10y ago
Don't think of it as part of the keyboard; think of it as more screen, that happens to be touchable. Like the bottom half of a Nintendo DS.

falcolas 10y ago

> At that point, I see no reason for vim users to complain (saying that as a vim user). Other than the escape button is only available contextually, and has moved? Other than the function keys some of us use as more mappings (such as in insert mode) now require looking at the keyboard and using a chord (Fn-touchbar). Of course, we can get used to it. Of course, we can just use another keyboard. Of course, we can learn alternate key bindings for escape. The change was unnecessary. Other companies have tried it and given way back to physical F keys - that should say something right there. Here's a thought: instead of removing keys for a touchbar, why not make the screen touchable? That way you don't need extra controls and interfaces to allow for scrubbing, volume control, application launching, etc.

matt4077 10y ago
> Other than the escape button is only available contextually, and has moved? what's the problem with "if context == vim -> show ESC". And that was at the far left as it has always been. > Other companies have tried it Tell that to Blackberry, or those Microsoft tablets. > Here's a thought: instead of removing keys for a touchbar, why not make the screen touchable? That would actually feel pretty useless. I'd always have my hands closer to the mouse or touchpad, and it feels really awkward to reach out to the screen.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Vim isn't an app - I'm guessing the context would have to be identified by Terminal and passed up the chain. Terminal isn't always the best at identifying the current running process for its window/tab names; relying on it to properly identify that Vim is running doesn't sound like a winning strategy. > And that was at the far left as it has always been. No, it's indented by half the width of the tilde key, whereas it was directly above the tilde key before. > Tell that to Blackberry, or those Microsoft tablets. Those are touchscreen devices, where you can touch the actual controls on the screen. I haven't yet seen another laptop with a touchbar which kept the touchbar for more than one generation. > I'd always have my hands closer to the mouse or touchpad Then you could continue to use the mouse and touchpad. The bottom of the screen is only about another inch or two above the touchbar as it stands now, and much more flexible in terms of what can appear there (such as website controls).

samat 10y ago

Reminded me this keyboard, made by Russian designer Lebedev many years ago http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/ http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/