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>and he seemed unhappy for a few days. This. There's a real dark side to this 'feel good' culture. I've been into meditation for quite some time and it really

>and he seemed unhappy for a few days. This. There's a real dark side to this 'feel good' culture. I've been into meditation for quite some time and it really does make you much more entitled. You get complacent with low stress and it becomes your new norm. When that new norm gets broken its very jarring and you realize you have less control of your emotions than you assumed. Apparantly, this stuff is like a muscle. If you don't use it, you lose it. Meanwhile the guys who deal with shit all day don't get fazed as much. Of course the car company screwed up, they almost always do, and the people who work there are barely above working at McDonalds. Having lowered expectations and a low regard for others seem to be the real way toward contentment in the modern world. Sure, that sounds cruel, but its probably true. We just hired a new guy straight out of school to help out in IT and he's just easily stressed, surprised, and sometimes borderline livid at how bad some of our staff are and how terrible some of our vendors are. Life's different in college as college is something of a meritocracy. The office world and 'real life' are a non-stop shitshow of dishonesty, laziness, entitlement, rip-offs, and incompetence most of the time. You learn to live with it and things like meditation and positive thinking don't really help, especially if your tradition empathizes the 'goodness' in others. Thats simply is a disservice to you. People tend to follow a simple game theory-like strategy in life. They aren't going to be your pals and have your best interests in mind. They will have their own best interests in mind and a lot of times that means being shitty or lazy at their job. No 'happiness guru' is going to change that. I used to think I could live without cynicism (or perhaps Stoicism) and with always thinking the best of the other person, but it just made me like your friend. A bit drugged up via my own practice and being unable to handle real life, real stress, and real everyday people.

knz 10y ago
I think this is why the idea of teaching resiliency to children seems to have had a resurgence. It's hardly a new concept and I wonder if it's blowback from the stereotypes that are pushed onto millennials (coddled and entitled) as they now represent the child raising demographic.
- almostarockstar 10y ago
  How is resiliency being thought to children? Genuine question. Is there a particular school of thought on this?
  - knz 10y ago
    A lot of parenting media talks about the importance of teaching your children that they will not always be successful, will encounter difficulty, and that they need to have flexible thinking etc. I have young kids can rarely ever run across media talking about the "everyone wins" mentality that people seem to think is pervasive.
ZeroFries 10y ago
I would think a seasoned meditator could handle very high stress situations just fine. If you're meditating just to lower stress, you're doing it wrong. It's supposed to change your relationship to your own thoughts and emotions, your sense of identity, etc, so that you don't shut down in the face of stress and pain. Stress and pain are a necessary part of life; your resistance to them is what causes your suffering. Basic meditation stuff.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts. Anything that ruins their calm becomes an issue. Like any hobby it becomes overpowering obsessive and competitive. Turns out meditation/religion/spirituality doesn't actually change human nature. Hell, read /r/meditation sometime and see the subtle poking they do at each other. Its hilarious to read comments with a very arrogant and commanding tone about how modest and ego free they are. I think you're playing up a 'no true scotsman' card here. I think most, if not all, people into meditation and spirituality become like this. If this stuff worked like magic, everyone would be doing it. It turns out it has a lot of downsides and often changes people for the worse. Maybe in some 'spiritual' way they're better people, but they still need to work with the real world and they seem pretty terrible at it. The guys I see losing their shit in public aren't poor people with bad social skills, but upper/middle class men and women who felt their entitlements challenged. One of those entitlements is feeling 'chill' about things. The woman doing yoga and meditation everyday is also the woman screaming at the kid at subway for not putting on enough olives on her sandwich. I've pressed these people before and I usually get a "I can't deal with unspiritual people" excuse. Its incredible how the cult of calm brings out the worst of people. I'm not even going to go into how this lifestyle is linked with things like anti-vax, reiki healing, crazy diets, cleanses, homeopathy, etc and other questionable things that can, and do, victimize children. I think the idea that all meditators, or even those who do it 'correctly', become some kind of super-being to be pretty silly. Its obvious the effect it has is pretty subtle and the kind of people who buy into it are often insufferable and pretentious. I think its okay to learn as a quick-ish stress reducer, but the idea of a daily hour-long practice and all the accoutrements surrounding it is fairly absurd and leads to pretty stupid places.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
westoncb 10y ago
> You learn to live with it and things like meditation and positive thinking don't really help, especially if your tradition empathizes the 'goodness' in others. When you say these things don't really 'help,' it depends on what your goals are in the first place. If your goal is to defeat them in a local competition for resources, you are correct. However, that's not the only possible goal-type. (Only really commenting on meditation though, 'positive thinking' is in direct conflict with the values of meditation, so lumping them together presents difficulties.)
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  > If your goal is to defeat them in a local competition for resources, you are correct. If your goal is to become "Mr Spiritual" that's fine but now you lose your shit when the kid at Mcdonalds messes up your order because he upset your calm. Or you quit the 'rat race' and get a low paying job that you think is 'more spiritual and calm' and now have to move to a ghetto where you get mugged often and have to go on welfare to make up for your income. The reality is that one goal eats at the other. That's my point. The only exception I can think of is monastic life where your needs are taken care of by begging or via welfare. My understanding is that this is what the Buddha intended with Buddhism and was very wary against teaching it to lay people. I imagine because it actually doesn't benefit the laity. It just leads to the problems listed for most.
  - westoncb 10y ago
    > If your goal is to become "Mr Spiritual" That's a false dichotomy. I know the type you're talking about—but many would find it equally undesirable to (or even another manifestation of) valuing only social/economic gain. Edit: fixed typo. Also, here's an example of a third goal type: "I'm going to spend a huge chunk of my life at work. So, why not enjoy myself and the company of my co-workers while there?"
  - tripzilch 10y ago
    > now you lose your shit when the kid at Mcdonalds messes up your order because he upset your calm second time you described a situation like this as if it's perfectly normal behaviour. it's not. and it's got nothing to do with meditation either. is this yourself? or do you witness this sort of scene frequently? you realize that if you say "well they probably have a lot on their plate, so they lose their shit at the tiniest slight", this makes you part of the problem right? because, and it feels a little silly explaining to a person over the age of 12, but verbally abusing someone, be it in a shop or anywhere else, is never appropriate or acceptable, no matter where they put your olives, and no I don't care who started it. > this is what the Buddha intended the nice thing about not fully buying into Buddhism and still practising meditation is that you don't have to place any extra importance to what scholars say that some guy may or may not have said or intended thousands of years ago.
petra 10y ago
Maybe if calm, in real life, is what one wants , a more reliable way would be to look at the mental training of navy seals, athletes and martial artists ?
jodavaho 10y ago
I find this sad. I agree that those who proselytize momentary distraction from life as the key to happiness tend to cause your very situation. The key to meditation as a skill is to learn to control your mind and attention so that you aren't caught by difficulties. When difficulties become ... more difficult, it becomes more challenging. What "modern" meditation does wrong, is it does not prepare you for the assaults that come with a truly challenging situation. Mindfulness probably addresses resisting hedonistic things, but Stoicism and others are much better for walking through life's challenges. Pick up Meditations or Obstacle is the Way or Warrior Mindset. The last is a quantitative manual for training yourself to handle stress, written by combat fighters.
almostarockstar 10y ago
Your post made me feel a little sad. I'm working on my PhD thesis at the moment and between papers being rejected, supervisors dropping of the grid for weeks at a time, side projects failing etc., I've been trying to find a little respite in mindfulness. I think there is certainly a place for mindfulness, calm and stress reduction techniques. I worry about stress related heart disease, aneurisms, cancer. But at the same time, a healthy cynicism can ground you. Life is confusing.

knz 10y ago

I think this is why the idea of teaching resiliency to children seems to have had a resurgence. It's hardly a new concept and I wonder if it's blowback from the stereotypes that are pushed onto millennials (coddled and entitled) as they now represent the child raising demographic.

almostarockstar 10y ago
How is resiliency being thought to children? Genuine question. Is there a particular school of thought on this?
- knz 10y ago
  A lot of parenting media talks about the importance of teaching your children that they will not always be successful, will encounter difficulty, and that they need to have flexible thinking etc. I have young kids can rarely ever run across media talking about the "everyone wins" mentality that people seem to think is pervasive.

ZeroFries 10y ago

I would think a seasoned meditator could handle very high stress situations just fine. If you're meditating just to lower stress, you're doing it wrong. It's supposed to change your relationship to your own thoughts and emotions, your sense of identity, etc, so that you don't shut down in the face of stress and pain. Stress and pain are a necessary part of life; your resistance to them is what causes your suffering. Basic meditation stuff.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
You'd think so, but I know a lot of guys like this. They buy into the "lifestyle" of calm or spirituality and they become divas of sorts. Anything that ruins their calm becomes an issue. Like any hobby it becomes overpowering obsessive and competitive. Turns out meditation/religion/spirituality doesn't actually change human nature. Hell, read /r/meditation sometime and see the subtle poking they do at each other. Its hilarious to read comments with a very arrogant and commanding tone about how modest and ego free they are. I think you're playing up a 'no true scotsman' card here. I think most, if not all, people into meditation and spirituality become like this. If this stuff worked like magic, everyone would be doing it. It turns out it has a lot of downsides and often changes people for the worse. Maybe in some 'spiritual' way they're better people, but they still need to work with the real world and they seem pretty terrible at it. The guys I see losing their shit in public aren't poor people with bad social skills, but upper/middle class men and women who felt their entitlements challenged. One of those entitlements is feeling 'chill' about things. The woman doing yoga and meditation everyday is also the woman screaming at the kid at subway for not putting on enough olives on her sandwich. I've pressed these people before and I usually get a "I can't deal with unspiritual people" excuse. Its incredible how the cult of calm brings out the worst of people. I'm not even going to go into how this lifestyle is linked with things like anti-vax, reiki healing, crazy diets, cleanses, homeopathy, etc and other questionable things that can, and do, victimize children. I think the idea that all meditators, or even those who do it 'correctly', become some kind of super-being to be pretty silly. Its obvious the effect it has is pretty subtle and the kind of people who buy into it are often insufferable and pretentious. I think its okay to learn as a quick-ish stress reducer, but the idea of a daily hour-long practice and all the accoutrements surrounding it is fairly absurd and leads to pretty stupid places.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

westoncb 10y ago

> You learn to live with it and things like meditation and positive thinking don't really help, especially if your tradition empathizes the 'goodness' in others. When you say these things don't really 'help,' it depends on what your goals are in the first place. If your goal is to defeat them in a local competition for resources, you are correct. However, that's not the only possible goal-type. (Only really commenting on meditation though, 'positive thinking' is in direct conflict with the values of meditation, so lumping them together presents difficulties.)

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
> If your goal is to defeat them in a local competition for resources, you are correct. If your goal is to become "Mr Spiritual" that's fine but now you lose your shit when the kid at Mcdonalds messes up your order because he upset your calm. Or you quit the 'rat race' and get a low paying job that you think is 'more spiritual and calm' and now have to move to a ghetto where you get mugged often and have to go on welfare to make up for your income. The reality is that one goal eats at the other. That's my point. The only exception I can think of is monastic life where your needs are taken care of by begging or via welfare. My understanding is that this is what the Buddha intended with Buddhism and was very wary against teaching it to lay people. I imagine because it actually doesn't benefit the laity. It just leads to the problems listed for most.
- westoncb 10y ago
  > If your goal is to become "Mr Spiritual" That's a false dichotomy. I know the type you're talking about—but many would find it equally undesirable to (or even another manifestation of) valuing only social/economic gain. Edit: fixed typo. Also, here's an example of a third goal type: "I'm going to spend a huge chunk of my life at work. So, why not enjoy myself and the company of my co-workers while there?"
- tripzilch 10y ago
  > now you lose your shit when the kid at Mcdonalds messes up your order because he upset your calm second time you described a situation like this as if it's perfectly normal behaviour. it's not. and it's got nothing to do with meditation either. is this yourself? or do you witness this sort of scene frequently? you realize that if you say "well they probably have a lot on their plate, so they lose their shit at the tiniest slight", this makes you part of the problem right? because, and it feels a little silly explaining to a person over the age of 12, but verbally abusing someone, be it in a shop or anywhere else, is never appropriate or acceptable, no matter where they put your olives, and no I don't care who started it. > this is what the Buddha intended the nice thing about not fully buying into Buddhism and still practising meditation is that you don't have to place any extra importance to what scholars say that some guy may or may not have said or intended thousands of years ago.

petra 10y ago

Maybe if calm, in real life, is what one wants , a more reliable way would be to look at the mental training of navy seals, athletes and martial artists ?

jodavaho 10y ago

I find this sad. I agree that those who proselytize momentary distraction from life as the key to happiness tend to cause your very situation. The key to meditation as a skill is to learn to control your mind and attention so that you aren't caught by difficulties. When difficulties become ... more difficult, it becomes more challenging. What "modern" meditation does wrong, is it does not prepare you for the assaults that come with a truly challenging situation. Mindfulness probably addresses resisting hedonistic things, but Stoicism and others are much better for walking through life's challenges. Pick up Meditations or Obstacle is the Way or Warrior Mindset. The last is a quantitative manual for training yourself to handle stress, written by combat fighters.

almostarockstar 10y ago

Your post made me feel a little sad. I'm working on my PhD thesis at the moment and between papers being rejected, supervisors dropping of the grid for weeks at a time, side projects failing etc., I've been trying to find a little respite in mindfulness. I think there is certainly a place for mindfulness, calm and stress reduction techniques. I worry about stress related heart disease, aneurisms, cancer. But at the same time, a healthy cynicism can ground you. Life is confusing.