14 ms·

Microsoft, I Forgive You

207 points by valgaze 10y ago

sickbeard 10y ago
Too soon?
- reustle 10y ago
  How so? They've been releasing a lot of projects as open source over the past few years, and they've been building some pretty cool hardware (Surface, etc). The new CEO does seem like he is pulling things in a better direction than before.
  - noir_lord 10y ago
    vscode has rapidly replaced all other editors I use (still use intellij for everything programming though), its already good and it has the potential to be great, I'm excited about the .net stuff coming to Linux as I loved C# but have been on Linux as developer for well over a decade and the Surface Book is in strong contention for my next laptop. Given my opinion of them a decade ago they've gone a long way to fix it. I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted.
    - l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
      I'll never forgive MS when they cancelled my XBOX Live Account because they accused me of hacking the XBOX. Meanwhile, for 3 months My XBOX Live account was hacked - Credit Card info etc. was modified. MS LIve was hacked & it didn't make the headlines. I endured 3 months of trying to get back my account. When I did get it back, after 2 months, my account was shutdown. Reason - We found that you hacked your Account/XBOX live. What? really? I was able to prove all the purchases etc. SO FUCK YOU MS and FUCK the thousands of dollars on XBOX - XBOX 360 Purchases. As for the Windows 10, it's not bad, but there's something in the background of this and how they want you to move all of your shit onto the "cloud." Use your MSDN or outlook ID for a better experience. WTF. I don't trust them, never will. The OS is good for games though... I do like F# and visual studio. But too bad they don't have a Unix/Linux like su or sudo. Oh well. Fuck you Microsoft, with love and lube.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted. Yeah, and then the "new Microsoft" gave us the Xbone (my complaints for which can be found elsewhere on HN), so I don't know that a ten year old console is the best basis for judgement.
- pmontra 10y ago
  Too soon. Among the others let's see how the current embracing of Ubuntu plays out.
  - yarrel 10y ago
    Extend then extinguish.
    - pmontra 10y ago
      As soon as I see an extension to Ubuntu that works only on a Windows host I'll know that extinguish is on its way. Even Red Hat will suffer because it will mean that at least for somebody there will be some good reason to deploy Linux applications on a Windows host on Azure (or whatever), possibly interfacing other MS products.
nailer 10y ago
I felt the same way for years - I was a Slashdotter, used to run a Linux desktop for about a decade and talk about 'MS' and occasionally use a dollar sign. Hey, I was 20, everyone was doing it. I recently had a conversation about how much I like powershell on HN. Someone called me a 'microshill' and I smiled a smile that comes with age.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  "I smiled a smile that comes with age" That smile that says "You'll understand eventually. It's best to leave your computing to the pros, they'll make sure it's done right and you don't hurt yourself."
  - ghshephard 10y ago
    Alternatively, and the way I read it, it's the smile that says, "How ironic that I, the biggest Microsoft hater that ever walked the planet, is now being accused of being biased towards Microsoft. The 'me' of 15 years ago would never have believed it."
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      The way I read it was "It's naive to think that companies (like people) are just black and white, and that nothing good can come out of an evil company, or vice versa. The fact that I like some of its technologies doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the company's direction." Although, M$ (woo) has changed significantly over the years.
      - Roboprog 10y ago
        DHH did make a good point about taking Google down a peg :-) Google has had some goofs as well as hits, and at the end of the day, they are just a marketing company that forces their employees to write in Java and C++. Eeeeooohw. (I have fewer issues with Apple, but I'm sure they will do something obnoxious soon enough - maybe even now if I had to write iOS apps)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mxuribe 10y ago
Agreed.
philix001 10y ago
"Tim Sweeney claims that Microsoft will remove Win32, destroy Steam" http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-ti...
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  Tim Sweeney has said this many times, but it's continually not held up. That same month, Microsoft released an update to make it easier to install UWP apps outside the Store. Steam could distribute UWP apps if they wanted to support it. And Win32 is going nowhere in the next decade, the entire world runs on it, and it's the reason Microsoft is in business. Tim Sweeney's comments on Windows 10 should almost be entirely dismissed as FUD. We have more pressing issues (telemetry) to worry about.
- pjc50 10y ago
  It's potentially a risk - after all, there isn't and can't really be an equivalent of Steam on Android or iOS. But at the moment it doesn't seem likely.
- mark_sz 10y ago
  Tim Sweeney lives in the past.
sbarre 10y ago
On topic of "new Microsoft", has anyone spent decent time with the Linux Subsystem for Windows 10? I've been slowly putting it through its paces for my (admittedly simple) dev workflows, which mostly involves web development tools like PHP, Ruby, git and node-based toolchains, but so far it has been a pretty good experience..
- lmm 10y ago
  It's only a couple of years since MS cut off SUA. Well into the supposedly "new" era. So I'm not touching this thing for a while, unless and until I'm convinced they're actually committed to it.
- Delmania 10y ago
  It's my default shell in Cmder. I do occasionally run up against the walls, but overall, I haven't had any issues with it.
- yalooze 10y ago
  I second that. Have mostly been playing with it on some toy projects of mine but works very well. Two main gripes: 1. Filesystem performance is very slow (ie. anything in /mnt), but I know they're working on it 2. I really wish I could get constant updates for WSL without having to opt-in to the Windows Insider Program. There are things I know are already fixed but I don't want to risk the whole OS just to play with an updated BashOnWindows.
- saboot 10y ago
  I had a few keyboard input issues with vim, and 256 color display problems. My "solution" was to just have Xming on startup, and create a shortcut on my taskbar to launch an xfce4-terminal instead of the default cmd.exe based thing the default Ubuntu Bash program uses.
- wvenable 10y ago
  I've spent a bit of time in it. I can run pretty complex Linux software like Qemu emulating an embedded platform displaying an X window. However, I've had serious problems working with symbolic links. I think giving how well it works, it's just a matter of continued debugging and refinement.
traviswingo 10y ago
I used to always "wince" when I had to use Windows or other Microsoft software. Now, Windows 10 is an absolute dream over previous versions, Office is pretty much second to none, and Microsoft's initiatives into hardware (Halolens) are pretty damn awesome. I'd say the company has made me into a non-hater again.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  I actually have had the opposite trajectory. I was rooting for Microsoft in the Windows 7/8 days, but Windows 10 is soooo ugly and soooo compromised in terms of privacy that I refuse to use it.
- pritambaral 10y ago
  Funnily enough I had the opposite transition. Sorta. I didn't mind Windows 7 so much, but Windows 10's user hostile behaviour makes me wince every time I have to use it. And I have to use it for work because of Microsoft's own hostile decisions (Skype for Linux can no longer do group video calls? Seriously!?!). I start a freshly installed Windows 10 instance on a desktop grade i7 with Nvidia 960M and it takes minutes for me to be able to even type in the search bar, ... because Windows decided to commandeer all my disk IO for Windows Updates that I can't disable. At least Windows 7 acquiesced to my wishes.
  - triplebit 10y ago
    Skype on Windows shows Ads now.
Analemma_ 10y ago
Whoa, didn't see this coming. During the event yesterday I was tweeting back and forth with some people about what Microsoft's future prospects look like, and someone said they're doomed because they'll never get developers back, specifically citing DHH's "real programmers don't use Windows" rant. At the time I thought it was time to re-examine that rant and maybe see if DHH was wrong, but it looks like the guy himself beat us to the punch.
Delmania 10y ago
I think, based on my history, a lot of people would call me a shill, but I still think it's important to stress the company is not perfect. There are still question about the data collection in Windows 10 and the company still does collect payments from Android vendors for the patents it owns. There's still some elements of the "Evil Empire" left, but overall, from a development and consumer device perspective, they do seem to be taking notes of what's working in the market.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  It seems to me like if Microsoft would take a step back on telemetry and cumulative forced updates, they'd have pretty much a home run. But it seems like they're just outright ignoring any feedback on both issues until the issues magically go away or stop talking about it.
  - Delmania 10y ago
    I'm honestly willing to give a pass on the forced updates. It's a hard place, as most people will never run updates, and we end up with botnets taking down Dyn. The downside, of course, is the debacle with the anniversary update. I wish they had a better update process.. The telemetry, on the hand, really does need to be a lot more transparent and much easier to opt out of...
    - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      I understand it for consumers. If it was Home edition only, fine. The problem is when Microsoft issues a cumulative update that A. fixes a critical vulnerability and B. breaks network printing, as an IT administrator I have to decide whether I want to leave a gaping security hole in our network until Microsoft fixes the printing issue, or push the update and break everyone's workflow until Microsoft fixes the printing issue. In the past, I'd simply hold the update that breaks network printing, and push the security update.
  - sjellis 10y ago
    These days, I always make a distinction between Microsoft, who have good and points, and the Windows division, who I can say nothing good about.
thenewwazoo 10y ago
If you'd told me ten years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, you'd have made an enemy. If you'd told me five years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, I'd have laughed at you. I sometimes still marvel that I work at Microsoft today, and don't hate myself for it. In fact - and it's still a little hard to believe - I really like what Microsoft has become, and I'm excited to contribute to it.
- johnnycarcin 10y ago
  I couldn't agree more. When a friend reached out to me about joining him at Microsoft my first response was "thanks but no thanks". He talked me into at least listening to the pitch and it actually worked. Talking with some of the old timers here at Microsoft it sounds like the culture has changed a ton (and is still changing) so hopefully that will continue to trickle down into the products.
  - amaks 10y ago
    Are you saying there is no backstabbing anymore? I left Microsoft in 2012 and it was the worst place on the planet ever (granted, Ballmer was still running the show). But can it change that much especially with all the layoffs they do every year on clock basis?
    - CephalopodMD 10y ago
      Yeah, the Balmer way of evaluation has completely disappeared. SWEs are no longer trying to remain outside the bottom 20% just to stay employed. Everything about evaluation is now centered around getting things done, helping others, and learning from others.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Upvotes to both of you from a former "hater". Just promise me to make telemetry more transparent and make opt-out possible somehow. And don't spam paying customers, that is tasteless. I love the new lockscreen though as long as it isn't ads (even if I recognize it is a running bing ad ; ).
rmsaksida 10y ago
I was close to forgiving them, but I'm holding onto my grudge because of forced automatic updates.
- gcp 10y ago
  Are you REALLY SURE you don't want to switch to Edge?
lmm 10y ago
My Surface Book is by far the nicest piece of hardware I've ever used. It does everything, and is beautiful to boot.
daveloyall 10y ago
Around three generations of users only know one kind of computer. These are the people that hate computers. Because Excel. Because Abort, Retry, or Fail[0]. Because software(license)-limited number of concurrent connections. Because they delayed the release of features to maximize profit. The world is in a mess today. I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know if we'd be better or worse off if we'd had machines that were only limited by hardware, not software, for all these years... But I'll stand my ground, hold my grudge, just in case, thank you very much. Somebody's got to keep an eye on them. EDIT: Whoops, I forgot the footnote! 0: ARF would be great if there were any practical difference between Abort and Fail... When you pick one or the other, a different errno is sent back to the application. The application then could take a different path... Just like a "Restart" in Common Lisp. However, MS's own flagship applications abstained from such behavior, again missing an opportunity to demonstrate, to teach...
Grue3 10y ago
>Besides, the company just isn’t scary any more. Or tone-setting. Or, in many areas of past glory, even relevant. Ironic, considering the author of this article.
lnlkndlfng 10y ago
wow much old and experienced greybeard masterman. much smile and knAwledge. much superior to linux kiddies. much much ms very good boy like powershell.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  wow least intelligent comment ever congrats
- pdabbadabba 10y ago
  Now I'm smiling that smile too!
- sctb 10y ago
  We ban accounts that comment like this here, so please stop. We've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12805997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12805997. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - lnlkndlfng 10y ago
    Cute.
untog 10y ago
Agreed. The Surface Studio looks amazing - I'm not a creative type, so it isn't really designed or intended for me, but boy do I want to play around with one. And the Surface Book also looks phenomenal - when coupled with the Linux subsystem, it could be a machine that does 90% of my daily tasks. Unfortunately that remaining 10% involves running and debugging sites and apps on iOS, which requires macOS. So I'm still on a Mac for now, but the temptation to get a Hackintosh running inside a VirtualBox VM increases every day...
- kyriakos 10y ago
  I'm running hackintosh inside virtualbox on Windows 10. Works well but obviously graphics performance is not great cause it's not officially supported. I only use it to debug sites in safari and mobile safari.
  - untog 10y ago
    Yeah, I'm more and more tempted to do it. But I do also debug in XCode, and I have a base resistance to relying on a personal hack project in my professional life. ...but, so tempting.
kar1181 10y ago
I'm not on the forgive train yet, but with the Apple computer ecosystem (as in things that look and behave like a PC-esque device) becoming increasingly hostile, I'm actually seriously considering going back to Windows. The deal breaker is having a unix shell. I have worked on a system with a native unix environment for a decade and a half, going back to to the windows shell is not an option. Thankfully, the Linux Subsystem for windows works pretty well already and with some further iteration I think it could become viable for most of my development needs. When that happens I don't feel any loyalty to apple and will happily move over.
- artursapek 10y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you. What do you think is still missing in their Linux subsystem? I haven't gotten to play around with it yet, but my list of demands is pretty small: - tmux works - vim works - bash works like on a Mac
  - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    Processes don't work quite the same. There's no sysv init or systemd. There's not good user separation within the shell (run all as root) and the file permissions in places where the subsystem meet the PC are weird. Those were my first impressions. I'm cautiously optimistic about it though, and confident they'll work out the kinks with time. But right now it's still better to be on BSD/Mac if you like a unix-like development environment without running linux.
    - banashark 10y ago
      I'm curious what your use case for those are. Are you needing to `init 1` or `systemctl isolate rescue.target`? Or is it perhaps a need to `systemctl status` on services? I might just not be that experienced with the wide use-cases for these applications, but what are your hypothetical use cases?
      - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
trymas 10y ago
But what about infamous Win10 data collection, forced updates, etc.?
- phr4ts 10y ago
  There are ways to block them. I use all of the following Netlimiter, Glasswire, Spybot Anti-Beacon, disable Windows Update service (though it has a habit of turning itself back on) and finally, Du Meter (This is the most important. The network toolbar alerts me when something's downloading without my permission)
  - quikoa 10y ago
    It's just ridiculous that you have to jump through so many hoops.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    This is the Windows equivalent of the stereotypical Linux over-complicated advice like "oh that's easy, just build from source but set the following compiler flags..."
  - dingaling 10y ago
    "Windows is only free if your time is worth nothing"
phr4ts 10y ago
>...hoping, jumping, dancing buffoon Wasn't this too much?
rootbear 10y ago
I barely use Windows these days, mostly Mac and Linux both at work and at home. I'm interested in the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 but haven't had time to look at it. I'd like to believe that Microsoft is now a cuddly Teddy bear, but the strong arm tactics around Windows 10 updates and the International Harvester attitude about my personal data have been very off putting. Sadly, Apple is getting arrogant about updates as well, spamming me constantly about upgrading my phone to iOS 10. If they would both back off on some of that, I'd be a lot happier. Having said that, the video I watched yesterday of the Surface Studio presentation was really impressive and I'm sure the content creation people will love it. Apple seems to have decided that they no longer care about that market, one they used to own. I'm saddened by that. Edit: I especially liked the 3:2 aspect of the Studio screen! 16:9 is not the One True Aspect Ratio!
- UK-AL 10y ago
  The vast majority of iOS (popular)apps also have telemetry.
eledra 10y ago
#ForgiveMicrosft
eledra 10y ago
#ForgiveMicrosoft
satysin 10y ago
For all the good steps Microsoft have made recently I still hate that I cannot run Windows 10 how I want. In the latest version, 1607, I can't even disable the lock screen when I resume from sleep ffs. So frustrating.
bechampion 10y ago
I have a windows 10 vm .. it applies updates every week that force me to restart. No thanks.
- mark_sz 10y ago
  I have MacBookPro with macOS - it applies updates every week that force me to restart... And...?
  - skykooler 10y ago
    And those updates don't usually hold the computer hostage for half an hour while you're trying to turn it off.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    You can turn those off, or ignore them. Either way. Windows, by default, will kill your machine and reboot it to apply patches, will install them when shutting down, and generally goes out of its way to be as annoying as possible. You can turn this off, but it's a lot harder to disable all the update settings.
    - mark_sz 10y ago
      how "harder" is it on Windows?
      - astrodust 10y ago
        There's several options to disable, whereas on macOS there's basically one. The other problem is some of the Windows options are pretty buried, that Control Panel is turning into a toxic waste dump.
jmcdiesel 10y ago
So DHH basically hates whoever is the successful one at the time, I guess (or two). Seems like the majority of the rest of the internet as well. Haters gonna hate, for all time.
- Roboprog 10y ago
  Easy to do: "power corrupts..." and such.
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
Funnily enough, I am a lifelong Microsoft Windows user who only recently switched to Linux because I got fed up with Microsoft's continued W10 bull.
nogbit 10y ago
Sure the Hardware is amazing but the OS feels way too much like that slimy car salesman...."trust me, it's the best deal out there".
protomyth 10y ago
I can let bygones be bygones on the whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows, but I just cannot get over the whole gathering of data they do and the choices they have taken away from Windows 10 Pro. The only version that really can have all of the stuff turned off is the Enterprise edition which I cannot buy. If they got rid of the BS phone home stuff, I would forgive. Until then, its just the same old crud modernized to do it the Advertising way.
- prodigal_erik 10y ago
  > whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows I can't get past that. Not only did they crush several companies trying to sell better software, but Gates gets to whitewash his reputation by spending the stolen money instead of rotting in a cage.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
I've felt similarly about Microsoft. I disliked their strategy and their taste for a long time. But I found their Surface Book announcement compelling and so I bought one. It went through some bumps and hiccups, and it still isn't as smooth as I would like, but it gave me the drawing experience I really wanted. I still think a Surface Pro 4 with a cellular modem built in would be killer. So if you're listening Surface team, go talk to the Nokia guys you bought and get the radio/antenna from the Lumia series phones and find some place to stick it inside your tablet please!
oldmanjay 10y ago
I can't help but want to be on the opposite side of whatever this guy is talking about. His belief in the objective correctness of his own opinions rivals Stallman's.
- mirekrusin 10y ago
  That's an extremely subjective, irrational perspective, isn't it?
olyjohn 10y ago
I don't forgive you. I don't forgive you for putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen. I don't forgive you for taking away my choice on when I want to update my computer. I don't forgive you for firing your QA team and then using the public as your beta testers. For taking away features in Windows Pro that could force people to upgrade to Enterprise. For us having to pay for support on top of buying your software. For not allowing home users to turn off Telemetry. For all of the product confusion and terrible naming conventions. I won't even go into past practices... I don't get how years of screwing everybody over can suddenly be turned around with some marketing saying "we <3 linux" and open sourcing a few projects out of desperation. They only <3 Linux because they have to. It's going to take a long time for me to regain their trust.
- wuschel 10y ago
  And you are not alone. It has been too much. If not for certain high value programs that run best on a native system, I would not start the old VMWare-virtualized Windows 7 up again. There are sufficiently good (and cheap) solutions in the Linux community. First Microsoft has to fix what they have been doing wrong for years. And then then have to answer the question what additional value they are providing for the money a company has to pay for their "services". Hype articles can not undo evil.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  (for them to regain your trust)
- dingo_bat 10y ago
  > putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen Anecdotal, but I haven't seen any ads in those places. Been using Win 10 since the preview. I'm not a fan of the "metro" interface/apps. I am a fan of the underlying tech in Windows and the general focus on usability and reliability. My laptop "just works" in every sense of the phrase, and it feels more responsive to my choices and demands than competing platforms (OSX and Ubuntu).
  - chadgeidel 10y ago
vanous 10y ago
It is all about choices. As long as you know that alternatives exist, all is fine. But for many people, there only is the Windows world. Or OSX. This is how i don't want it to be for my children. See... I have been using Linux since 1999, exclusively since 2001, this includes home and also business. Yes, there are lots of win specific software, but you know, wine got so much better over the years, if really needed i can use VM and as last resort, even reboot to win7. As my kids been growing up, we have played many games on Linux (WOT Blitz, WarThunder, Minecraft... some natively, some via steam, some via wine steam... playonlinux has been interesting too, and not only for games... and i have been amazed that all this has been possible. This all on a mid range laptop randomly purchased, with full hardware support, touchscreen, sleeping/resuming... you name it. And my kids are proud to use Linux, knowing there are many people contributing, rather then promoting large company, who, besides other bad stuff, has been known for making fake police reports on stolen software in this country. So this is a good story, good experience. Certainly possible on any platform, but sometimes good platforms are tainted by bad companies.
golfer 10y ago
I'm not sure I feel the same way, and I will probably be downvoted for it. Microsoft's entire existence is largely based on incredibly aggressive, (perhaps) unethical behavior against its perceived rivals. FUD, threats of litigation and patent extortion, etc. Trying to destroy the entire open source movement. Why do they need forgiveness? They are a profit-seeking entity that has tried to crush many things I hold dear. Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do long ago. It's only because they failed that we are having this discussion.
- vonklaus 10y ago
  I agree with the sentiment in the article because of an important point you mentioned: > Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do As DHH points out; and to a similar vein if we swap Google for Microsoft in your quote above, fragmenting the industry is the safest and best way to serve users. Google seems to have succeeded in it's goal to control the worlds information-- and whether you believe this or no; having 3 powerful entities competing with each other is much better than many small ones trying to dethrone a hostile winner. Small startups will always try and innovate where they can, but there are now different inroads as a single leader can not always banish them. I agree with you. I agree on the macro-scale. I do not want one company to have the ability to do the things you mentioned. I am sure Microsoft is doing much of this new initiative out of self-interest, but it is good for the community. I like vscode, they have an extremely easy to use && intuitive Azure interface and a massive amount of open courses and docs on how to use it, and tons of other code, docs, resources ect. I don't want Amazon to be the only cloud provider. I don't want google to be the only search engine. I don't want os x/win to be the only 2 operating systems. I don't want Apple to be the only vertically integrated handset maker. I don't want a single option for payment/wallet I don't want a single app store. All these things are better addressed when there is competition, and the competition between several large players leaves room for smaller companies to enter and innovate.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    This is key. It was funny, I was watching Adam Conover's "Election Special" this week, and the big point at the end it came down to was that partisanship was making us dumber. Largely, because of cognitive bias. And my first thought that is was true of our allegiances to tech companies, product stacks, etc. as well. We need options, we need to be willing to find the good and bad in each company or product we use. And we need to put ourselves in a position where we can easily switch as advantageous.
ebbv 10y ago
This is just flat out wrong. Microsoft has improved a lot and is doing some cool stuff but they are still doing horrible shady things too. Windows 10 installs with very invasive default settings, and updates have re-enabled those invasive settings, requiring users to be aware of that and go in and turn them off again. I applaud the moves to Open Source and standardization. But they have further to go before I would call them a "puppy".
jejones3141 10y ago
I'm not ready to forgive yet. There are very few places I can buy a computer with Linux preinstalled, and too much Linux-unfriendly hardware, and I still wonder when the UEFI hammer will fall.
mixmastamyk 10y ago
I might be willing to forgive (not forget) but not while MS is doubling down with the "telemetry", ignoring privacy, forcing their corporate choices, and in bed with government divisions of ill repute.
boneheadmed 10y ago
Why limit yourself? I have a laptop running Windows. My other laptop simultaneously runs Mac OS and from there I VNC into my linux server. Know everything.
Nux 10y ago
It's the same wolf, just got smarter and fancier clothing, old man ...
drc0 10y ago
this is one of the stupidest thing I've read today
- sctb 10y ago
  Please comment civilly and substantively on HN or not at all.
bitwize 10y ago
No, sorry, to paraphrase Richard Gere, this is not a cuddly new Microsoft. Though Windows got downgraded from "the literal bane of that part of my existence that involves interacting with computers" to "death by a thousand paper cuts". File I/O is still slow, process spawning is still slow, Windows 10 is a privacy clusterfuck, and there are endless other annoyances. No thank you, I'll avoid all that if possible and stick with Linux. I explained it to a friend thus. Imagine living in a world everyone drove a Ford Pinto. You could try driving not-a-Pinto; however, people will look at you funny and your boss may fire you. 99% of auto shops only sell Pinto parts and there are some roads you can't go on, which will shred up your tires because they're not Pinto tires. That was the situation in the Windows 9x era. Later, after millions of complaints about the Pinto's tendency to explode, Ford Motor company finally issues an upgrade option for the Pinto: the Ford Taurus. You are still expected to drive a Taurus, and to use it for everything, including grand touring, drag racing, and pulling heavy loads. Some Taurus drivers assure me that their modern fuel-injected Taurus engine really is more powerful than the Cummins V8 diesel in my Dodge pickup, but I will treat that story with suspicion until I see Tauruses pulling trailers full of lumber or equipment up grades that the Dodge can't handle, and I haven't seen that yet. But the status quo today is, at least, better than a fucking Pinto. That's where we are today.
Touche 10y ago
The console/terminal/command prompt/whatever is still hot garbage. I recently installed Bash for Windows on my Windows 10 laptop excited that maybe I could use it for dev again. Nope, uses the same terrible console that has been in Windows since they dropped DOS. If they really want to go after devs this needs to be an "all hands on deck" thing they fix. Stop everything you are doing and focus exclusively on this. Don't try to make incremental improvements to the existing terminal; start from scratch. Here are some requirements: 1) Copy/paste must just work like it does in all other app. Including selection. 2) Standard menus, not right-click on the window chrome and "Properties". 3) Has to look decent by default. Not 8px fonts. Not 0px padding. Not a scrollbar before there's anything to scroll. Make it look decent. 4) Tabs That's it! I (and no one else) cares if its embeddable or not, just make a terminal that is decent, like Terminal.app (which I don't use but is fine). PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers that try to fix these issues. I've seen them all and they aren't good enough (through no fault of their own, they have to work with the command prompt).
- nulagrithom 10y ago
  > PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers Are you sure you've seen them all? Even the Linux ones? :) Try Xming (an X server for Windows). You can run just about any terminal emulator you want. I find Terminator to be quite nice.
- nas 10y ago
  Their command window annoys the hell out of me as well. How many years did it take for them to get working tab complete by default? Another annoying thing is Notepad. Would it kill them to give it the ability to handle different line endings? It would probably take an intern one day to fix it. Nope, they are an island and screw the rest of the computing world.
- JdeBP 10y ago
  It's a console. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.... * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html The sad thing is that the Interix subsystem did improve on the console, giving it a far more complete terminal emulation for starters, and Microsoft owns it. The WSL did not build upon this. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html
gottam 10y ago
No matter who wrote this post, what it says, or what the people here say in the comments this will always read as viral marketing as if people are paid to praise microsoft. It's a consequence of the fact I'm now wired to expect it, because these companies have big budgets and actually do spend their money on astroturfing.
digi_owl 10y ago
And i just had to roll back the GPU driver because MS silently upgraded it, in the process nuking my ability to use a external screen...
triplebit 10y ago
I'd be happier if I could update my laptop and wife's laptop to be encrypted. It's 2016, that should be in every OS be default.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  Have you looked into BitLocker?
  - triplebit 10y ago
    Right, that's the issue though. It's only available on Pro or higher.
    - WorldMaker 10y ago
      You are right. That's probably something that would be useful to home users as well. That said, the in-place upgrade to Pro is quite easy in Windows since Vista. In Windows 10 you simply buy it from the Store.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
ralmidani 10y ago
I don't need to forgive Microsoft. I moved to GNU/Linux (Debian, thank you very much) and never looked back. All the drama regarding forced updates, stealing user bandwidth, etc. does not affect me personally. But it does prove that once an abuser, always an abuser. Once the dust settles on .NET, I may take a serious look at it. That doesn't need me to forgive or trust Microsoft, since I can study the source code and do whatever I want with it. Once I learn how to set up my own reliable email server, I plan to dump GMail, as well. Edit: typo
stcredzero 10y ago
I think there's tremendous untapped potential in an easel-like all in one workstation PC. I would love to make a serious stats package that has a round-trip visual editor that generates code. For certain things that are very process oriented, why aren't we making live diagrams of this stuff and letting users edit those with large touchscreens? (Disclosure: I once worked for a successful company that did this with something as complex as energy scheduling, though it wasn't round trip. (Didn't need to be.) I know that you can build useful, orthogonal, and darn useful diagrams that allow one to do serious work.)
happy-go-lucky 10y ago
Linux is by programmers, for programmers, and also for power users who are programmers in the making. Windows' target audience is average users and these users are their main source of revenue. A while ago, I said in another thread that their open source efforts are a means to an end and nothing else. I also see their recent subsystem for Linux as an halfhearted effort.
craigvn 10y ago
I think what has happened is Microsoft was perceived to be evil because they held what was thought to be a monopoly and people don't like companies being in that position, it makes them feel like they are always being screwed. Then Google and Apple usurped them and people rejoiced, only to soon find out the Apple and Google are just as dodgy and monopolistic as Microsoft was.
- khattam 10y ago
  Monopoly in itself is bad for consumers. Google and Apple abuse their monopoly in their specific markets not because they are "just as bad" but because they have monopoly just like Microsoft does in it's own market.
EdSharkey 10y ago
Microsoft, if you open source Windows plus whatever SDK du jour (Win32, Win64, et al) you want me to code against such that I can build from source where all your telemetry and other "advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers" nonsense are ripped the F--- out, THEN you'll get juuuust enough dispensation from me that when you die you won't go to hell, just purgatory. Forgiveness? Dream on.
iamwil 10y ago
No way. I have a long memory. I'all resist as long as I can.
drdeadringer 10y ago
While I don't believe in Heaven, I do believe that Bill Gates can buy his way there.
danbmil99 10y ago
I think their most egregious sin revolves around document formats. Their mendacity in pretending to support Open Standards while doing the exact opposite was serious Dr. Evil shit.
NotSammyHagar 10y ago
Microsoft needs to seek absolution for forcing people to windows 10. it may be an unforgivable sin

207 points by valgaze 10y ago

sickbeard 10y ago

Too soon?

reustle 10y ago
How so? They've been releasing a lot of projects as open source over the past few years, and they've been building some pretty cool hardware (Surface, etc). The new CEO does seem like he is pulling things in a better direction than before.
- noir_lord 10y ago
  vscode has rapidly replaced all other editors I use (still use intellij for everything programming though), its already good and it has the potential to be great, I'm excited about the .net stuff coming to Linux as I loved C# but have been on Linux as developer for well over a decade and the Surface Book is in strong contention for my next laptop. Given my opinion of them a decade ago they've gone a long way to fix it. I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted.
  - l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
    I'll never forgive MS when they cancelled my XBOX Live Account because they accused me of hacking the XBOX. Meanwhile, for 3 months My XBOX Live account was hacked - Credit Card info etc. was modified. MS LIve was hacked & it didn't make the headlines. I endured 3 months of trying to get back my account. When I did get it back, after 2 months, my account was shutdown. Reason - We found that you hacked your Account/XBOX live. What? really? I was able to prove all the purchases etc. SO FUCK YOU MS and FUCK the thousands of dollars on XBOX - XBOX 360 Purchases. As for the Windows 10, it's not bad, but there's something in the background of this and how they want you to move all of your shit onto the "cloud." Use your MSDN or outlook ID for a better experience. WTF. I don't trust them, never will. The OS is good for games though... I do like F# and visual studio. But too bad they don't have a Unix/Linux like su or sudo. Oh well. Fuck you Microsoft, with love and lube.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted. Yeah, and then the "new Microsoft" gave us the Xbone (my complaints for which can be found elsewhere on HN), so I don't know that a ten year old console is the best basis for judgement.
pmontra 10y ago
Too soon. Among the others let's see how the current embracing of Ubuntu plays out.
- yarrel 10y ago
  Extend then extinguish.
  - pmontra 10y ago
    As soon as I see an extension to Ubuntu that works only on a Windows host I'll know that extinguish is on its way. Even Red Hat will suffer because it will mean that at least for somebody there will be some good reason to deploy Linux applications on a Windows host on Azure (or whatever), possibly interfacing other MS products.

nailer 10y ago

I felt the same way for years - I was a Slashdotter, used to run a Linux desktop for about a decade and talk about 'MS' and occasionally use a dollar sign. Hey, I was 20, everyone was doing it. I recently had a conversation about how much I like powershell on HN. Someone called me a 'microshill' and I smiled a smile that comes with age.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jasonkostempski 10y ago
"I smiled a smile that comes with age" That smile that says "You'll understand eventually. It's best to leave your computing to the pros, they'll make sure it's done right and you don't hurt yourself."
- ghshephard 10y ago
  Alternatively, and the way I read it, it's the smile that says, "How ironic that I, the biggest Microsoft hater that ever walked the planet, is now being accused of being biased towards Microsoft. The 'me' of 15 years ago would never have believed it."
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    The way I read it was "It's naive to think that companies (like people) are just black and white, and that nothing good can come out of an evil company, or vice versa. The fact that I like some of its technologies doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the company's direction." Although, M$ (woo) has changed significantly over the years.
    - Roboprog 10y ago
      DHH did make a good point about taking Google down a peg :-) Google has had some goofs as well as hits, and at the end of the day, they are just a marketing company that forces their employees to write in Java and C++. Eeeeooohw. (I have fewer issues with Apple, but I'm sure they will do something obnoxious soon enough - maybe even now if I had to write iOS apps)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mxuribe 10y ago

Agreed.

philix001 10y ago

"Tim Sweeney claims that Microsoft will remove Win32, destroy Steam" http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-ti...

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
Tim Sweeney has said this many times, but it's continually not held up. That same month, Microsoft released an update to make it easier to install UWP apps outside the Store. Steam could distribute UWP apps if they wanted to support it. And Win32 is going nowhere in the next decade, the entire world runs on it, and it's the reason Microsoft is in business. Tim Sweeney's comments on Windows 10 should almost be entirely dismissed as FUD. We have more pressing issues (telemetry) to worry about.
pjc50 10y ago
It's potentially a risk - after all, there isn't and can't really be an equivalent of Steam on Android or iOS. But at the moment it doesn't seem likely.
mark_sz 10y ago
Tim Sweeney lives in the past.

sbarre 10y ago

On topic of "new Microsoft", has anyone spent decent time with the Linux Subsystem for Windows 10? I've been slowly putting it through its paces for my (admittedly simple) dev workflows, which mostly involves web development tools like PHP, Ruby, git and node-based toolchains, but so far it has been a pretty good experience..

lmm 10y ago
It's only a couple of years since MS cut off SUA. Well into the supposedly "new" era. So I'm not touching this thing for a while, unless and until I'm convinced they're actually committed to it.
Delmania 10y ago
It's my default shell in Cmder. I do occasionally run up against the walls, but overall, I haven't had any issues with it.
yalooze 10y ago
I second that. Have mostly been playing with it on some toy projects of mine but works very well. Two main gripes: 1. Filesystem performance is very slow (ie. anything in /mnt), but I know they're working on it 2. I really wish I could get constant updates for WSL without having to opt-in to the Windows Insider Program. There are things I know are already fixed but I don't want to risk the whole OS just to play with an updated BashOnWindows.
saboot 10y ago
I had a few keyboard input issues with vim, and 256 color display problems. My "solution" was to just have Xming on startup, and create a shortcut on my taskbar to launch an xfce4-terminal instead of the default cmd.exe based thing the default Ubuntu Bash program uses.
wvenable 10y ago
I've spent a bit of time in it. I can run pretty complex Linux software like Qemu emulating an embedded platform displaying an X window. However, I've had serious problems working with symbolic links. I think giving how well it works, it's just a matter of continued debugging and refinement.

traviswingo 10y ago

I used to always "wince" when I had to use Windows or other Microsoft software. Now, Windows 10 is an absolute dream over previous versions, Office is pretty much second to none, and Microsoft's initiatives into hardware (Halolens) are pretty damn awesome. I'd say the company has made me into a non-hater again.

AlexandrB 10y ago
I actually have had the opposite trajectory. I was rooting for Microsoft in the Windows 7/8 days, but Windows 10 is soooo ugly and soooo compromised in terms of privacy that I refuse to use it.
pritambaral 10y ago
Funnily enough I had the opposite transition. Sorta. I didn't mind Windows 7 so much, but Windows 10's user hostile behaviour makes me wince every time I have to use it. And I have to use it for work because of Microsoft's own hostile decisions (Skype for Linux can no longer do group video calls? Seriously!?!). I start a freshly installed Windows 10 instance on a desktop grade i7 with Nvidia 960M and it takes minutes for me to be able to even type in the search bar, ... because Windows decided to commandeer all my disk IO for Windows Updates that I can't disable. At least Windows 7 acquiesced to my wishes.
- triplebit 10y ago
  Skype on Windows shows Ads now.

Analemma_ 10y ago

Whoa, didn't see this coming. During the event yesterday I was tweeting back and forth with some people about what Microsoft's future prospects look like, and someone said they're doomed because they'll never get developers back, specifically citing DHH's "real programmers don't use Windows" rant. At the time I thought it was time to re-examine that rant and maybe see if DHH was wrong, but it looks like the guy himself beat us to the punch.

Delmania 10y ago

I think, based on my history, a lot of people would call me a shill, but I still think it's important to stress the company is not perfect. There are still question about the data collection in Windows 10 and the company still does collect payments from Android vendors for the patents it owns. There's still some elements of the "Evil Empire" left, but overall, from a development and consumer device perspective, they do seem to be taking notes of what's working in the market.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
It seems to me like if Microsoft would take a step back on telemetry and cumulative forced updates, they'd have pretty much a home run. But it seems like they're just outright ignoring any feedback on both issues until the issues magically go away or stop talking about it.
- Delmania 10y ago
  I'm honestly willing to give a pass on the forced updates. It's a hard place, as most people will never run updates, and we end up with botnets taking down Dyn. The downside, of course, is the debacle with the anniversary update. I wish they had a better update process.. The telemetry, on the hand, really does need to be a lot more transparent and much easier to opt out of...
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    I understand it for consumers. If it was Home edition only, fine. The problem is when Microsoft issues a cumulative update that A. fixes a critical vulnerability and B. breaks network printing, as an IT administrator I have to decide whether I want to leave a gaping security hole in our network until Microsoft fixes the printing issue, or push the update and break everyone's workflow until Microsoft fixes the printing issue. In the past, I'd simply hold the update that breaks network printing, and push the security update.
- sjellis 10y ago
  These days, I always make a distinction between Microsoft, who have good and points, and the Windows division, who I can say nothing good about.

thenewwazoo 10y ago

If you'd told me ten years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, you'd have made an enemy. If you'd told me five years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, I'd have laughed at you. I sometimes still marvel that I work at Microsoft today, and don't hate myself for it. In fact - and it's still a little hard to believe - I really like what Microsoft has become, and I'm excited to contribute to it.

johnnycarcin 10y ago
I couldn't agree more. When a friend reached out to me about joining him at Microsoft my first response was "thanks but no thanks". He talked me into at least listening to the pitch and it actually worked. Talking with some of the old timers here at Microsoft it sounds like the culture has changed a ton (and is still changing) so hopefully that will continue to trickle down into the products.
- amaks 10y ago
  Are you saying there is no backstabbing anymore? I left Microsoft in 2012 and it was the worst place on the planet ever (granted, Ballmer was still running the show). But can it change that much especially with all the layoffs they do every year on clock basis?
  - CephalopodMD 10y ago
    Yeah, the Balmer way of evaluation has completely disappeared. SWEs are no longer trying to remain outside the bottom 20% just to stay employed. Everything about evaluation is now centered around getting things done, helping others, and learning from others.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Upvotes to both of you from a former "hater". Just promise me to make telemetry more transparent and make opt-out possible somehow. And don't spam paying customers, that is tasteless. I love the new lockscreen though as long as it isn't ads (even if I recognize it is a running bing ad ; ).

rmsaksida 10y ago

I was close to forgiving them, but I'm holding onto my grudge because of forced automatic updates.

gcp 10y ago
Are you REALLY SURE you don't want to switch to Edge?

lmm 10y ago

My Surface Book is by far the nicest piece of hardware I've ever used. It does everything, and is beautiful to boot.

daveloyall 10y ago

Around three generations of users only know one kind of computer. These are the people that hate computers. Because Excel. Because Abort, Retry, or Fail[0]. Because software(license)-limited number of concurrent connections. Because they delayed the release of features to maximize profit. The world is in a mess today. I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know if we'd be better or worse off if we'd had machines that were only limited by hardware, not software, for all these years... But I'll stand my ground, hold my grudge, just in case, thank you very much. Somebody's got to keep an eye on them. EDIT: Whoops, I forgot the footnote! 0: ARF would be great if there were any practical difference between Abort and Fail... When you pick one or the other, a different errno is sent back to the application. The application then could take a different path... Just like a "Restart" in Common Lisp. However, MS's own flagship applications abstained from such behavior, again missing an opportunity to demonstrate, to teach...

Grue3 10y ago

>Besides, the company just isn’t scary any more. Or tone-setting. Or, in many areas of past glory, even relevant. Ironic, considering the author of this article.

lnlkndlfng 10y ago

wow much old and experienced greybeard masterman. much smile and knAwledge. much superior to linux kiddies. much much ms very good boy like powershell.

WayneBro 10y ago
wow least intelligent comment ever congrats
pdabbadabba 10y ago
Now I'm smiling that smile too!
sctb 10y ago
We ban accounts that comment like this here, so please stop. We've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12805997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12805997. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lnlkndlfng 10y ago
  Cute.

untog 10y ago

Agreed. The Surface Studio looks amazing - I'm not a creative type, so it isn't really designed or intended for me, but boy do I want to play around with one. And the Surface Book also looks phenomenal - when coupled with the Linux subsystem, it could be a machine that does 90% of my daily tasks. Unfortunately that remaining 10% involves running and debugging sites and apps on iOS, which requires macOS. So I'm still on a Mac for now, but the temptation to get a Hackintosh running inside a VirtualBox VM increases every day...

kyriakos 10y ago
I'm running hackintosh inside virtualbox on Windows 10. Works well but obviously graphics performance is not great cause it's not officially supported. I only use it to debug sites in safari and mobile safari.
- untog 10y ago
  Yeah, I'm more and more tempted to do it. But I do also debug in XCode, and I have a base resistance to relying on a personal hack project in my professional life. ...but, so tempting.

kar1181 10y ago

I'm not on the forgive train yet, but with the Apple computer ecosystem (as in things that look and behave like a PC-esque device) becoming increasingly hostile, I'm actually seriously considering going back to Windows. The deal breaker is having a unix shell. I have worked on a system with a native unix environment for a decade and a half, going back to to the windows shell is not an option. Thankfully, the Linux Subsystem for windows works pretty well already and with some further iteration I think it could become viable for most of my development needs. When that happens I don't feel any loyalty to apple and will happily move over.

artursapek 10y ago
I'm in the same boat as you. What do you think is still missing in their Linux subsystem? I haven't gotten to play around with it yet, but my list of demands is pretty small: - tmux works - vim works - bash works like on a Mac
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  Processes don't work quite the same. There's no sysv init or systemd. There's not good user separation within the shell (run all as root) and the file permissions in places where the subsystem meet the PC are weird. Those were my first impressions. I'm cautiously optimistic about it though, and confident they'll work out the kinks with time. But right now it's still better to be on BSD/Mac if you like a unix-like development environment without running linux.
  - banashark 10y ago
    I'm curious what your use case for those are. Are you needing to `init 1` or `systemctl isolate rescue.target`? Or is it perhaps a need to `systemctl status` on services? I might just not be that experienced with the wide use-cases for these applications, but what are your hypothetical use cases?
    - matt_wulfeck 10y ago

trymas 10y ago

But what about infamous Win10 data collection, forced updates, etc.?

phr4ts 10y ago
There are ways to block them. I use all of the following Netlimiter, Glasswire, Spybot Anti-Beacon, disable Windows Update service (though it has a habit of turning itself back on) and finally, Du Meter (This is the most important. The network toolbar alerts me when something's downloading without my permission)
- quikoa 10y ago
  It's just ridiculous that you have to jump through so many hoops.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  This is the Windows equivalent of the stereotypical Linux over-complicated advice like "oh that's easy, just build from source but set the following compiler flags..."
- dingaling 10y ago
  "Windows is only free if your time is worth nothing"

phr4ts 10y ago

>...hoping, jumping, dancing buffoon Wasn't this too much?

rootbear 10y ago

I barely use Windows these days, mostly Mac and Linux both at work and at home. I'm interested in the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 but haven't had time to look at it. I'd like to believe that Microsoft is now a cuddly Teddy bear, but the strong arm tactics around Windows 10 updates and the International Harvester attitude about my personal data have been very off putting. Sadly, Apple is getting arrogant about updates as well, spamming me constantly about upgrading my phone to iOS 10. If they would both back off on some of that, I'd be a lot happier. Having said that, the video I watched yesterday of the Surface Studio presentation was really impressive and I'm sure the content creation people will love it. Apple seems to have decided that they no longer care about that market, one they used to own. I'm saddened by that. Edit: I especially liked the 3:2 aspect of the Studio screen! 16:9 is not the One True Aspect Ratio!

UK-AL 10y ago
The vast majority of iOS (popular)apps also have telemetry.

eledra 10y ago

#ForgiveMicrosft

eledra 10y ago

#ForgiveMicrosoft

satysin 10y ago

For all the good steps Microsoft have made recently I still hate that I cannot run Windows 10 how I want. In the latest version, 1607, I can't even disable the lock screen when I resume from sleep ffs. So frustrating.

bechampion 10y ago

I have a windows 10 vm .. it applies updates every week that force me to restart. No thanks.

mark_sz 10y ago
I have MacBookPro with macOS - it applies updates every week that force me to restart... And...?
- skykooler 10y ago
  And those updates don't usually hold the computer hostage for half an hour while you're trying to turn it off.
- astrodust 10y ago
  You can turn those off, or ignore them. Either way. Windows, by default, will kill your machine and reboot it to apply patches, will install them when shutting down, and generally goes out of its way to be as annoying as possible. You can turn this off, but it's a lot harder to disable all the update settings.
  - mark_sz 10y ago
    how "harder" is it on Windows?
    - astrodust 10y ago
      There's several options to disable, whereas on macOS there's basically one. The other problem is some of the Windows options are pretty buried, that Control Panel is turning into a toxic waste dump.

jmcdiesel 10y ago

So DHH basically hates whoever is the successful one at the time, I guess (or two). Seems like the majority of the rest of the internet as well. Haters gonna hate, for all time.

Roboprog 10y ago
Easy to do: "power corrupts..." and such.

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago

Funnily enough, I am a lifelong Microsoft Windows user who only recently switched to Linux because I got fed up with Microsoft's continued W10 bull.

nogbit 10y ago

Sure the Hardware is amazing but the OS feels way too much like that slimy car salesman...."trust me, it's the best deal out there".

protomyth 10y ago

I can let bygones be bygones on the whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows, but I just cannot get over the whole gathering of data they do and the choices they have taken away from Windows 10 Pro. The only version that really can have all of the stuff turned off is the Enterprise edition which I cannot buy. If they got rid of the BS phone home stuff, I would forgive. Until then, its just the same old crud modernized to do it the Advertising way.

prodigal_erik 10y ago
> whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows I can't get past that. Not only did they crush several companies trying to sell better software, but Gates gets to whitewash his reputation by spending the stolen money instead of rotting in a cage.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

I've felt similarly about Microsoft. I disliked their strategy and their taste for a long time. But I found their Surface Book announcement compelling and so I bought one. It went through some bumps and hiccups, and it still isn't as smooth as I would like, but it gave me the drawing experience I really wanted. I still think a Surface Pro 4 with a cellular modem built in would be killer. So if you're listening Surface team, go talk to the Nokia guys you bought and get the radio/antenna from the Lumia series phones and find some place to stick it inside your tablet please!

oldmanjay 10y ago

I can't help but want to be on the opposite side of whatever this guy is talking about. His belief in the objective correctness of his own opinions rivals Stallman's.

mirekrusin 10y ago
That's an extremely subjective, irrational perspective, isn't it?

olyjohn 10y ago

I don't forgive you. I don't forgive you for putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen. I don't forgive you for taking away my choice on when I want to update my computer. I don't forgive you for firing your QA team and then using the public as your beta testers. For taking away features in Windows Pro that could force people to upgrade to Enterprise. For us having to pay for support on top of buying your software. For not allowing home users to turn off Telemetry. For all of the product confusion and terrible naming conventions. I won't even go into past practices... I don't get how years of screwing everybody over can suddenly be turned around with some marketing saying "we <3 linux" and open sourcing a few projects out of desperation. They only <3 Linux because they have to. It's going to take a long time for me to regain their trust.

wuschel 10y ago
And you are not alone. It has been too much. If not for certain high value programs that run best on a native system, I would not start the old VMWare-virtualized Windows 7 up again. There are sufficiently good (and cheap) solutions in the Linux community. First Microsoft has to fix what they have been doing wrong for years. And then then have to answer the question what additional value they are providing for the money a company has to pay for their "services". Hype articles can not undo evil.
mixmastamyk 10y ago
(for them to regain your trust)
dingo_bat 10y ago
> putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen Anecdotal, but I haven't seen any ads in those places. Been using Win 10 since the preview. I'm not a fan of the "metro" interface/apps. I am a fan of the underlying tech in Windows and the general focus on usability and reliability. My laptop "just works" in every sense of the phrase, and it feels more responsive to my choices and demands than competing platforms (OSX and Ubuntu).
- chadgeidel 10y ago

vanous 10y ago

It is all about choices. As long as you know that alternatives exist, all is fine. But for many people, there only is the Windows world. Or OSX. This is how i don't want it to be for my children. See... I have been using Linux since 1999, exclusively since 2001, this includes home and also business. Yes, there are lots of win specific software, but you know, wine got so much better over the years, if really needed i can use VM and as last resort, even reboot to win7. As my kids been growing up, we have played many games on Linux (WOT Blitz, WarThunder, Minecraft... some natively, some via steam, some via wine steam... playonlinux has been interesting too, and not only for games... and i have been amazed that all this has been possible. This all on a mid range laptop randomly purchased, with full hardware support, touchscreen, sleeping/resuming... you name it. And my kids are proud to use Linux, knowing there are many people contributing, rather then promoting large company, who, besides other bad stuff, has been known for making fake police reports on stolen software in this country. So this is a good story, good experience. Certainly possible on any platform, but sometimes good platforms are tainted by bad companies.

golfer 10y ago

I'm not sure I feel the same way, and I will probably be downvoted for it. Microsoft's entire existence is largely based on incredibly aggressive, (perhaps) unethical behavior against its perceived rivals. FUD, threats of litigation and patent extortion, etc. Trying to destroy the entire open source movement. Why do they need forgiveness? They are a profit-seeking entity that has tried to crush many things I hold dear. Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do long ago. It's only because they failed that we are having this discussion.

vonklaus 10y ago
I agree with the sentiment in the article because of an important point you mentioned: > Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do As DHH points out; and to a similar vein if we swap Google for Microsoft in your quote above, fragmenting the industry is the safest and best way to serve users. Google seems to have succeeded in it's goal to control the worlds information-- and whether you believe this or no; having 3 powerful entities competing with each other is much better than many small ones trying to dethrone a hostile winner. Small startups will always try and innovate where they can, but there are now different inroads as a single leader can not always banish them. I agree with you. I agree on the macro-scale. I do not want one company to have the ability to do the things you mentioned. I am sure Microsoft is doing much of this new initiative out of self-interest, but it is good for the community. I like vscode, they have an extremely easy to use && intuitive Azure interface and a massive amount of open courses and docs on how to use it, and tons of other code, docs, resources ect. I don't want Amazon to be the only cloud provider. I don't want google to be the only search engine. I don't want os x/win to be the only 2 operating systems. I don't want Apple to be the only vertically integrated handset maker. I don't want a single option for payment/wallet I don't want a single app store. All these things are better addressed when there is competition, and the competition between several large players leaves room for smaller companies to enter and innovate.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  This is key. It was funny, I was watching Adam Conover's "Election Special" this week, and the big point at the end it came down to was that partisanship was making us dumber. Largely, because of cognitive bias. And my first thought that is was true of our allegiances to tech companies, product stacks, etc. as well. We need options, we need to be willing to find the good and bad in each company or product we use. And we need to put ourselves in a position where we can easily switch as advantageous.

ebbv 10y ago

This is just flat out wrong. Microsoft has improved a lot and is doing some cool stuff but they are still doing horrible shady things too. Windows 10 installs with very invasive default settings, and updates have re-enabled those invasive settings, requiring users to be aware of that and go in and turn them off again. I applaud the moves to Open Source and standardization. But they have further to go before I would call them a "puppy".

jejones3141 10y ago

I'm not ready to forgive yet. There are very few places I can buy a computer with Linux preinstalled, and too much Linux-unfriendly hardware, and I still wonder when the UEFI hammer will fall.

mixmastamyk 10y ago

I might be willing to forgive (not forget) but not while MS is doubling down with the "telemetry", ignoring privacy, forcing their corporate choices, and in bed with government divisions of ill repute.

boneheadmed 10y ago

Why limit yourself? I have a laptop running Windows. My other laptop simultaneously runs Mac OS and from there I VNC into my linux server. Know everything.

Nux 10y ago

It's the same wolf, just got smarter and fancier clothing, old man ...

drc0 10y ago

this is one of the stupidest thing I've read today

sctb 10y ago
Please comment civilly and substantively on HN or not at all.

bitwize 10y ago

No, sorry, to paraphrase Richard Gere, this is not a cuddly new Microsoft. Though Windows got downgraded from "the literal bane of that part of my existence that involves interacting with computers" to "death by a thousand paper cuts". File I/O is still slow, process spawning is still slow, Windows 10 is a privacy clusterfuck, and there are endless other annoyances. No thank you, I'll avoid all that if possible and stick with Linux. I explained it to a friend thus. Imagine living in a world everyone drove a Ford Pinto. You could try driving not-a-Pinto; however, people will look at you funny and your boss may fire you. 99% of auto shops only sell Pinto parts and there are some roads you can't go on, which will shred up your tires because they're not Pinto tires. That was the situation in the Windows 9x era. Later, after millions of complaints about the Pinto's tendency to explode, Ford Motor company finally issues an upgrade option for the Pinto: the Ford Taurus. You are still expected to drive a Taurus, and to use it for everything, including grand touring, drag racing, and pulling heavy loads. Some Taurus drivers assure me that their modern fuel-injected Taurus engine really is more powerful than the Cummins V8 diesel in my Dodge pickup, but I will treat that story with suspicion until I see Tauruses pulling trailers full of lumber or equipment up grades that the Dodge can't handle, and I haven't seen that yet. But the status quo today is, at least, better than a fucking Pinto. That's where we are today.

Touche 10y ago

The console/terminal/command prompt/whatever is still hot garbage. I recently installed Bash for Windows on my Windows 10 laptop excited that maybe I could use it for dev again. Nope, uses the same terrible console that has been in Windows since they dropped DOS. If they really want to go after devs this needs to be an "all hands on deck" thing they fix. Stop everything you are doing and focus exclusively on this. Don't try to make incremental improvements to the existing terminal; start from scratch. Here are some requirements: 1) Copy/paste must just work like it does in all other app. Including selection. 2) Standard menus, not right-click on the window chrome and "Properties". 3) Has to look decent by default. Not 8px fonts. Not 0px padding. Not a scrollbar before there's anything to scroll. Make it look decent. 4) Tabs That's it! I (and no one else) cares if its embeddable or not, just make a terminal that is decent, like Terminal.app (which I don't use but is fine). PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers that try to fix these issues. I've seen them all and they aren't good enough (through no fault of their own, they have to work with the command prompt).

nulagrithom 10y ago
> PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers Are you sure you've seen them all? Even the Linux ones? :) Try Xming (an X server for Windows). You can run just about any terminal emulator you want. I find Terminator to be quite nice.
nas 10y ago
Their command window annoys the hell out of me as well. How many years did it take for them to get working tab complete by default? Another annoying thing is Notepad. Would it kill them to give it the ability to handle different line endings? It would probably take an intern one day to fix it. Nope, they are an island and screw the rest of the computing world.
JdeBP 10y ago
It's a console. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.... * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html The sad thing is that the Interix subsystem did improve on the console, giving it a far more complete terminal emulation for starters, and Microsoft owns it. The WSL did not build upon this. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935 * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html

gottam 10y ago

No matter who wrote this post, what it says, or what the people here say in the comments this will always read as viral marketing as if people are paid to praise microsoft. It's a consequence of the fact I'm now wired to expect it, because these companies have big budgets and actually do spend their money on astroturfing.

digi_owl 10y ago

And i just had to roll back the GPU driver because MS silently upgraded it, in the process nuking my ability to use a external screen...

triplebit 10y ago

I'd be happier if I could update my laptop and wife's laptop to be encrypted. It's 2016, that should be in every OS be default.

WorldMaker 10y ago
Have you looked into BitLocker?
- triplebit 10y ago
  Right, that's the issue though. It's only available on Pro or higher.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    You are right. That's probably something that would be useful to home users as well. That said, the in-place upgrade to Pro is quite easy in Windows since Vista. In Windows 10 you simply buy it from the Store.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

ralmidani 10y ago

I don't need to forgive Microsoft. I moved to GNU/Linux (Debian, thank you very much) and never looked back. All the drama regarding forced updates, stealing user bandwidth, etc. does not affect me personally. But it does prove that once an abuser, always an abuser. Once the dust settles on .NET, I may take a serious look at it. That doesn't need me to forgive or trust Microsoft, since I can study the source code and do whatever I want with it. Once I learn how to set up my own reliable email server, I plan to dump GMail, as well. Edit: typo

stcredzero 10y ago

I think there's tremendous untapped potential in an easel-like all in one workstation PC. I would love to make a serious stats package that has a round-trip visual editor that generates code. For certain things that are very process oriented, why aren't we making live diagrams of this stuff and letting users edit those with large touchscreens? (Disclosure: I once worked for a successful company that did this with something as complex as energy scheduling, though it wasn't round trip. (Didn't need to be.) I know that you can build useful, orthogonal, and darn useful diagrams that allow one to do serious work.)

happy-go-lucky 10y ago

Linux is by programmers, for programmers, and also for power users who are programmers in the making. Windows' target audience is average users and these users are their main source of revenue. A while ago, I said in another thread that their open source efforts are a means to an end and nothing else. I also see their recent subsystem for Linux as an halfhearted effort.

craigvn 10y ago

I think what has happened is Microsoft was perceived to be evil because they held what was thought to be a monopoly and people don't like companies being in that position, it makes them feel like they are always being screwed. Then Google and Apple usurped them and people rejoiced, only to soon find out the Apple and Google are just as dodgy and monopolistic as Microsoft was.

khattam 10y ago
Monopoly in itself is bad for consumers. Google and Apple abuse their monopoly in their specific markets not because they are "just as bad" but because they have monopoly just like Microsoft does in it's own market.

EdSharkey 10y ago

Microsoft, if you open source Windows plus whatever SDK du jour (Win32, Win64, et al) you want me to code against such that I can build from source where all your telemetry and other "advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers" nonsense are ripped the F--- out, THEN you'll get juuuust enough dispensation from me that when you die you won't go to hell, just purgatory. Forgiveness? Dream on.

iamwil 10y ago

No way. I have a long memory. I'all resist as long as I can.

drdeadringer 10y ago

While I don't believe in Heaven, I do believe that Bill Gates can buy his way there.

danbmil99 10y ago

I think their most egregious sin revolves around document formats. Their mendacity in pretending to support Open Standards while doing the exact opposite was serious Dr. Evil shit.

NotSammyHagar 10y ago

Microsoft needs to seek absolution for forcing people to windows 10. it may be an unforgivable sin