4 ms·

Well, for sure that's how it works. I do believe noting this is valuable for social political and values entrepreneurship reasons. Often, people round here do

Well, for sure that's how it works. I do believe noting this is valuable for social political and values entrepreneurship reasons. Often, people round here don't just want to fit into the machine.

atemerev 10y ago
You don't need to if you do not want to. For Goldman Sachs, you are indeed a resource, a money making appliance. However, for _you_ (assuming you are lucky/hardworking/talented enough to get a job at GS), they are not a family, nor a prison or army or anything else. They are an _instrument_ to achieve your personal goals. E.g. if I am a successful algo trader, I can start building my track record, bringing money from external sources (not only for investment, but for technical/administrative costs as well), and, after say 5-10 years of gruesome work, I can launch my own hedge fund. Or fail at it. OR -- I can apply for a quant trader job at GS, and get access to their vast financial resources, knowledge, connections, and whatsnot. Yes, they will take, say, 99.5% of money I earn with my trading algorithms, but 0.5% of a billion is much more than 100% of those $20000 I can make per year trading on my own account. Win-win.
- wott 10y ago
  > Win-win. That's not complete. It's win-win-lose. Win for you, win for GS, and lose for the society.
  - hueving 10y ago
    That assumes the allocation of capital provides no value to society. Mortgages, business loans, loans to governments (bonds), etc.
    - hash-set 10y ago
      Regulatory capture, M&A corporate raiding, wiping out middle America one rotten deal at a time. The allocation of capital at the top has been demonstrably destructive to our society. It has enabled the near total destruction of our Constitutional Republic. You're all fucking heroes.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    I am a part of the society. So are Goldman Sachs directors, and their clients, and their clients, and clients of those clients etc. GS is an investment bank. Their main activity is investment -- meaning giving money to the entrepreneurs (not directly -- but instead investing in funds who assemble venture funds who give money to the entrepreneurs), as well as providing financial lifelines to existing companies. For me, investment banking is what enables society's economic well-being. Without investment banks, there would be much less companies created, jobs retained, and economic activity in general. Investment banks make high profits? Good, every business should strive to do that -- Apple have much better profit margins than GS. Nobody blames Apple to be ruthless capitalistic profit-takers, as long as their new iPhone is better than the old one.
    - osullivj 10y ago
      That's a very generous view of the investment banking sector, and one that doesn't quite align with my 17 years experience in that line. For example, your view doesn't accommodate how GS packaged credit derivs designed to fail and sold them to AIG, then sold default insurance on the same instruments to hedge funds that would profit from their failure. Investment banks exist to extract a profit from each transaction they do. Nothing more or less. A very large proportion of that profit goes to the management and staff of the bank as bonuses. Some of it goes to shareholders as dividends, but a much lower proportion that in other sectors. Which is why I don't buy IB equity.
      - hash-set 10y ago
        You also forgot to mention how they took order from clients at one desk, then swiveled the chair around and told the prop desk what the order was so the house could front run the order or do one of any number of other unethical things to the clients.
    - hash-set 10y ago
      I think the country could get along just fine without out. Better, in fact.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    That isn't an absolute and you know it. Why even perpetuate the narrative, without pinpointing specific actions? Someone pointed out M&A consolidation and regulatory capture. Specific actions with specific discussions, and a very small portion of the functions of these institutions.
arethuza 10y ago
I'm reminded of the Trotsky quote: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" Ignoring the reality of how organizations function is probably the easiest way of dealing with the realities of day to day employment but that doesn't mean that you also get to ignore the unexpected all-hands meeting with the HR department...
- atemerev 10y ago
  It is feared and avoided at all costs, but well expected in the industry. Like taxes. :)

Well, for sure that's how it works. I do believe noting this is valuable for social political and values entrepreneurship reasons. Often, people round here don't just want to fit into the machine.

atemerev 10y ago

You don't need to if you do not want to. For Goldman Sachs, you are indeed a resource, a money making appliance. However, for _you_ (assuming you are lucky/hardworking/talented enough to get a job at GS), they are not a family, nor a prison or army or anything else. They are an _instrument_ to achieve your personal goals. E.g. if I am a successful algo trader, I can start building my track record, bringing money from external sources (not only for investment, but for technical/administrative costs as well), and, after say 5-10 years of gruesome work, I can launch my own hedge fund. Or fail at it. OR -- I can apply for a quant trader job at GS, and get access to their vast financial resources, knowledge, connections, and whatsnot. Yes, they will take, say, 99.5% of money I earn with my trading algorithms, but 0.5% of a billion is much more than 100% of those $20000 I can make per year trading on my own account. Win-win.

wott 10y ago
> Win-win. That's not complete. It's win-win-lose. Win for you, win for GS, and lose for the society.
- hueving 10y ago
  That assumes the allocation of capital provides no value to society. Mortgages, business loans, loans to governments (bonds), etc.
  - hash-set 10y ago
    Regulatory capture, M&A corporate raiding, wiping out middle America one rotten deal at a time. The allocation of capital at the top has been demonstrably destructive to our society. It has enabled the near total destruction of our Constitutional Republic. You're all fucking heroes.
- atemerev 10y ago
  I am a part of the society. So are Goldman Sachs directors, and their clients, and their clients, and clients of those clients etc. GS is an investment bank. Their main activity is investment -- meaning giving money to the entrepreneurs (not directly -- but instead investing in funds who assemble venture funds who give money to the entrepreneurs), as well as providing financial lifelines to existing companies. For me, investment banking is what enables society's economic well-being. Without investment banks, there would be much less companies created, jobs retained, and economic activity in general. Investment banks make high profits? Good, every business should strive to do that -- Apple have much better profit margins than GS. Nobody blames Apple to be ruthless capitalistic profit-takers, as long as their new iPhone is better than the old one.
  - osullivj 10y ago
    That's a very generous view of the investment banking sector, and one that doesn't quite align with my 17 years experience in that line. For example, your view doesn't accommodate how GS packaged credit derivs designed to fail and sold them to AIG, then sold default insurance on the same instruments to hedge funds that would profit from their failure. Investment banks exist to extract a profit from each transaction they do. Nothing more or less. A very large proportion of that profit goes to the management and staff of the bank as bonuses. Some of it goes to shareholders as dividends, but a much lower proportion that in other sectors. Which is why I don't buy IB equity.
    - hash-set 10y ago
      You also forgot to mention how they took order from clients at one desk, then swiveled the chair around and told the prop desk what the order was so the house could front run the order or do one of any number of other unethical things to the clients.
  - hash-set 10y ago
    I think the country could get along just fine without out. Better, in fact.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  That isn't an absolute and you know it. Why even perpetuate the narrative, without pinpointing specific actions? Someone pointed out M&A consolidation and regulatory capture. Specific actions with specific discussions, and a very small portion of the functions of these institutions.

arethuza 10y ago

I'm reminded of the Trotsky quote: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" Ignoring the reality of how organizations function is probably the easiest way of dealing with the realities of day to day employment but that doesn't mean that you also get to ignore the unexpected all-hands meeting with the HR department...

atemerev 10y ago
It is feared and avoided at all costs, but well expected in the industry. Like taxes. :)