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Clicking on China is interesting. I had no idea the Chinese government considered these things to be 'state secrets'. The data Google posted here isn't even inf

Clicking on China is interesting. I had no idea the Chinese government considered these things to be 'state secrets'. The data Google posted here isn't even information on what exactly was removed / requested. It's only broad stroke information - How many requests - how often there was compliance - what time of content was requested removed. I wonder if this information for China were released if there would be much outrage... I can imagine: -Outrage with Google for how often they complied -Outrage at China for the sheer number of requests -Outrage at China for the types of content removed All in all, releasing that information would probably hurt Google far more than it would hurt China.

kevindication 17y ago
Don't forget possible retribution upon any Google employees left in China as well.
- ycseattle 17y ago
  Get real. Do you really believe the government will go after Google's Chinese employee?
  - buster 17y ago
    I think chinas supression of their own people has a dimension people in the western world can rarely believe. I'm not sure myself, but i consider those things possible in china.
  - ajkirwin 17y ago
    Yes. I do.
    - ycseattle 17y ago
      Let me guess, you've never been to China and you don't know anybody who grow up in China.
      - dschobel 17y ago
        What's your point? We live in a world where communication obviates the need for everyone to be first hand witnesses. The entire concept of news reporting is predicated on credible third parties.
        ycseattle 17y ago
        My point is that majority of western news about China are biased and sensational and taken out of context. You form your opinion based on the source that is already filtered by the journalists. You will have much better view of the whole story if you can read Chinese media, just for the full story. You might refuse to do so because they are controlled by the government. I ask you to talk to Chinese, you refuse as well because you think there is no need. How "sound" do you think your opinion will be?
        krschultz 17y ago
        I have friends born & raised in China who say the exact opposite of what you are are saying.
        papersmith 17y ago
        I was reading a popular Chinese forum (tianya.cn) thread on contaminated food, and I was surprised at how anti-government the tone was. (think reddit, but more extreme) There were jokes taking direct jabs at the party and state, and I was amazed that they didn't get taken down. I think Chinese tend to avoid talking shit about their country in front of foreigners to "save face". It seems to be part of the culture.
        ycseattle 17y ago
        I am not surprised that you are surprised that tianya.cn ( hosted in Beijing) is still online. We talk shit about Chinese government like that when I was in college, and that's more than a decade ago. One of the most famous forum at the time is called "Shui Mu Qing Hua." This is just one of many mythes that western media contributed to, and that's why I ask people to get some first-hand source. Just to clarify, I don't mean there are free speech in China in the same level with that in western countries. I mean the fact that you are surprised is because western media is doing a bad job reporting China and people seem to have complete faith in those news. Now when it comes to talking shit in front of foreigners to save face and part of Chinese culture, I hope you don't mean that Chinese culture is inferior. When my Americans friends talk shit about their government in front of me, they understand that I speak fluent English and I know exactly what they mean. I don't talk shit about Chinese government in front of westerners I am not close with, because I know they don't speak Chinese, know nothing about Chinese culture (or feeling Chinese culture is inferior) and will take my comments out of context. Let me give you an example: giving cash as gift to people you know, friends, colleagues, bosses, is a new year tradition in China, and the money amount can be very large. We have similar gift-exchange for many occasions. This is a tradition that everyone in China follow, and it does make it difficult to fight corruption. In western countries when nobody should accept gift of more than $25 from people with working relationships, there is no way people can understand this, and most likely, they will (or self-righteously) say this tradition is backward. Power to you if you can change a culture, but it is ridiculous to see westerns response when hearing you might receive a cash gift worth a week of your income and there is nothing wrong with it. Culture difference between China and the West, is much bigger than the difference between western countries.
  - tsally 17y ago
    Uh, yes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_... More specifically: "On 17 Oct 2009, Reuters reported that Guo Quan a professor in Nanjing Teachers University was sentenced to 10 years in jail for "inciting Subversion" of Government. There are more than 40 people in jail for criticizing the government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Political_freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_... Threatening to provide or actually providing uncensored search results to the public could certainly be construed as inciting subversion.
    - ycseattle 17y ago
      So you think the government will go after the google employee because they are going public to support Google? Have you heard any Google Chinese employee "reportedly" supporting the employer and bashing Chinese government, even those living in US? Do you know the full story of the 40 people in jail for criticizing the government? Do you know the population in China? Do you know how many people are jailed in US because of Patriot Act, with no reason and no trial?
      - stingraycharles 17y ago
        Those points do not refute the argument that the Chinese government might go after the employees, and Google is being careful with that. Google's position in China is sensitive given the things that happened there in the past months, and I can imagine they don't want to fuel the fire any more than necessary.
      - jrockway 17y ago
        Do you know how many people are jailed in US because of Patriot Act, with no reason and no trial? People like to bring this up, and I have a few things to say about it. 1) Just because the US does something, doesn't mean it's OK. We nuked fucking Japan. Doesn't make nuclear war OK. 2) The people held by the US are not citizens, they are soldiers picked up in war zones and held outside the US. Completely unacceptable? Yes. Violation of international law? Hopefully. But this is not what's going on in China. Normal citizens, with full rights under the law, are being openly convicted and suffering harsh penalties for speaking out against the government. If the US government did what the Chinese government did, in this narrow category, the government officials would be the ones in prison. The US is far from perfect, but it is pretty good.
  - kevindication 17y ago
    They've been afraid of this before. From http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-approach-to-china-update.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-approach-to-china... : <blockquote>Finally, we would like to make clear that all these decisions have been driven and implemented by our executives in the United States, and that none of our employees in China can, or should, be held responsible for them. Despite all the uncertainty and difficulties they have faced since we made our announcement in January, they have continued to focus on serving our Chinese users and customers. We are immensely proud of them.</blockquote>
    - ycseattle 17y ago
      This statement is exactly why I think Google is evil in this case. This is what Google PR talk, you will never know how their employee feels. In reality, if you read Chinese and the other side of story, you probably will feel the employees are more a victim of Google instead of China. I think Google deliberately add this statement to make them sounds like "caring." I won't even try to convince you with my opinion, just encourage you to talk to Chinese living in western countries to get a full story. Google has good information about "emotion" and it is a media company. A popular media theory is "if you control their emotion, you control their opinion."
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - garply 17y ago
    Actually, word here (in Beijing) has been that the gov't has been scooping up old Google engineers to work on the state-sponsored CCTV search engine.

kevindication 17y ago

Don't forget possible retribution upon any Google employees left in China as well.

ycseattle 17y ago
Get real. Do you really believe the government will go after Google's Chinese employee?
- buster 17y ago
  I think chinas supression of their own people has a dimension people in the western world can rarely believe. I'm not sure myself, but i consider those things possible in china.
- ajkirwin 17y ago
  Yes. I do.
  - ycseattle 17y ago
    Let me guess, you've never been to China and you don't know anybody who grow up in China.
    - dschobel 17y ago
      What's your point? We live in a world where communication obviates the need for everyone to be first hand witnesses. The entire concept of news reporting is predicated on credible third parties.
      - ycseattle 17y ago
        My point is that majority of western news about China are biased and sensational and taken out of context. You form your opinion based on the source that is already filtered by the journalists. You will have much better view of the whole story if you can read Chinese media, just for the full story. You might refuse to do so because they are controlled by the government. I ask you to talk to Chinese, you refuse as well because you think there is no need. How "sound" do you think your opinion will be?
        krschultz 17y ago
        I have friends born & raised in China who say the exact opposite of what you are are saying.
        papersmith 17y ago
        I was reading a popular Chinese forum (tianya.cn) thread on contaminated food, and I was surprised at how anti-government the tone was. (think reddit, but more extreme) There were jokes taking direct jabs at the party and state, and I was amazed that they didn't get taken down. I think Chinese tend to avoid talking shit about their country in front of foreigners to "save face". It seems to be part of the culture.
        ycseattle 17y ago
        I am not surprised that you are surprised that tianya.cn ( hosted in Beijing) is still online. We talk shit about Chinese government like that when I was in college, and that's more than a decade ago. One of the most famous forum at the time is called "Shui Mu Qing Hua." This is just one of many mythes that western media contributed to, and that's why I ask people to get some first-hand source. Just to clarify, I don't mean there are free speech in China in the same level with that in western countries. I mean the fact that you are surprised is because western media is doing a bad job reporting China and people seem to have complete faith in those news. Now when it comes to talking shit in front of foreigners to save face and part of Chinese culture, I hope you don't mean that Chinese culture is inferior. When my Americans friends talk shit about their government in front of me, they understand that I speak fluent English and I know exactly what they mean. I don't talk shit about Chinese government in front of westerners I am not close with, because I know they don't speak Chinese, know nothing about Chinese culture (or feeling Chinese culture is inferior) and will take my comments out of context. Let me give you an example: giving cash as gift to people you know, friends, colleagues, bosses, is a new year tradition in China, and the money amount can be very large. We have similar gift-exchange for many occasions. This is a tradition that everyone in China follow, and it does make it difficult to fight corruption. In western countries when nobody should accept gift of more than $25 from people with working relationships, there is no way people can understand this, and most likely, they will (or self-righteously) say this tradition is backward. Power to you if you can change a culture, but it is ridiculous to see westerns response when hearing you might receive a cash gift worth a week of your income and there is nothing wrong with it. Culture difference between China and the West, is much bigger than the difference between western countries.
- tsally 17y ago
  Uh, yes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_... More specifically: "On 17 Oct 2009, Reuters reported that Guo Quan a professor in Nanjing Teachers University was sentenced to 10 years in jail for "inciting Subversion" of Government. There are more than 40 people in jail for criticizing the government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Political_freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_... Threatening to provide or actually providing uncensored search results to the public could certainly be construed as inciting subversion.
  - ycseattle 17y ago
    So you think the government will go after the google employee because they are going public to support Google? Have you heard any Google Chinese employee "reportedly" supporting the employer and bashing Chinese government, even those living in US? Do you know the full story of the 40 people in jail for criticizing the government? Do you know the population in China? Do you know how many people are jailed in US because of Patriot Act, with no reason and no trial?
    - stingraycharles 17y ago
      Those points do not refute the argument that the Chinese government might go after the employees, and Google is being careful with that. Google's position in China is sensitive given the things that happened there in the past months, and I can imagine they don't want to fuel the fire any more than necessary.
    - jrockway 17y ago
      Do you know how many people are jailed in US because of Patriot Act, with no reason and no trial? People like to bring this up, and I have a few things to say about it. 1) Just because the US does something, doesn't mean it's OK. We nuked fucking Japan. Doesn't make nuclear war OK. 2) The people held by the US are not citizens, they are soldiers picked up in war zones and held outside the US. Completely unacceptable? Yes. Violation of international law? Hopefully. But this is not what's going on in China. Normal citizens, with full rights under the law, are being openly convicted and suffering harsh penalties for speaking out against the government. If the US government did what the Chinese government did, in this narrow category, the government officials would be the ones in prison. The US is far from perfect, but it is pretty good.
- kevindication 17y ago
  They've been afraid of this before. From http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-approach-to-china-update.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-approach-to-china... : <blockquote>Finally, we would like to make clear that all these decisions have been driven and implemented by our executives in the United States, and that none of our employees in China can, or should, be held responsible for them. Despite all the uncertainty and difficulties they have faced since we made our announcement in January, they have continued to focus on serving our Chinese users and customers. We are immensely proud of them.</blockquote>
  - ycseattle 17y ago
    This statement is exactly why I think Google is evil in this case. This is what Google PR talk, you will never know how their employee feels. In reality, if you read Chinese and the other side of story, you probably will feel the employees are more a victim of Google instead of China. I think Google deliberately add this statement to make them sounds like "caring." I won't even try to convince you with my opinion, just encourage you to talk to Chinese living in western countries to get a full story. Google has good information about "emotion" and it is a media company. A popular media theory is "if you control their emotion, you control their opinion."
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- garply 17y ago
  Actually, word here (in Beijing) has been that the gov't has been scooping up old Google engineers to work on the state-sponsored CCTV search engine.