4 ms·

Peter Thiel and I are both LGBT people and we both oppose those laws. It's not that we "hate gays" or can't tolerate LGBT. Of course not. We simply disagree wit

by gragas 10y ago

Peter Thiel and I are both LGBT people and we both oppose those laws. It's not that we "hate gays" or can't tolerate LGBT. Of course not. We simply disagree with the laws for other reasons (mostly government over-reach and constitutional issues).

norea-armozel 10y ago
you seem to be missing the point. If you oppose civil rights protections for LGBT people but support them for non-LGBT people then you're a hypocrite. But more so you're also for the same socioeconomic system that supports oppression of minorities which means you're acting against your self interest and that of others. And throwing out that you're LGBT doesn't exempt you from criticism from anyone especially me since I'm a bi trans woman. So trying that "but I'm LGBT how can I vote against my self interests" meme doesn't mean much when your ideology opposes individual freedom and the protection thereof.
- gragas 10y ago
  I simply disagree. I don't believe there is systemic racism or systemic discrimination. If you provide evidence that there is systemic discrimination I would love to see it. Mostly all I've seen is people blaming "the system" for all their failings in life when in reality, no one gives a fuck about what they look like or what their skin color is. This is just like BLM. I am absolutely opposed to racism. I just don't think it exists to the extent that BLM activists think it does. The FBI and numerous other reputable organizations release information about crime and discrimination each year, and absolutely none of it provides evidence in favor of "systemic inequality" against minorities. In fact, it has always done the opposite. It has always shown that minorities commit overwhelmingly more violent crime against non-minorities than the other way around. But that's beside the point. The point I'm trying to make is this: no one cares that you're trans. And no one cares that I'm bi. We all have the same rights. We don't need to be granted more "civil rights" because we fall into some group. Blaming the system is simply not valid unless you can provide evidence.
  - norea-armozel 10y ago
    My comment has nothing to do with systemic anything. It has to do with the fact that we have laws on the books protecting people on the basis of race, sex, religion, and political affiliation. Are you saying you think those laws are a bad idea? If so, then we can't have kind of discussion here. Those civil rights are a bare minimum for me to consider any social conservative's opinion. If you don't agree to those terms then move on.
    - gragas 10y ago
      You said: >system that supports oppression of minorities which means you're acting against your self interest and that of others To which I said that I don't think we're in a system that does that. I don't think we're "oppressed by the system". I work with trans people and gay people. I'm LGBT myself. Everyone is paid the same. No one cares that some of us are "minorities".
      - norea-armozel 10y ago
        "To which I said that I don't think we're in a system that does that. I don't think we're "oppressed by the system"." That doesn't imply the system oppresses. People oppress people and systems can aid or mitigate that oppression. "I work with trans people and gay people. I'm LGBT myself. Everyone is paid the same." Statistics on employment and wages say otherwise. "No one cares that some of us are "minorities"." Tell that to the evangelical Christians who number at least 50 million in the United States and many of whom own and operate businesses which a couple I've personally worked at while in the closet. In short, your belief is that there's no culture of oppression among social conservatives in the work place, housing, or even medical care? Can you back that up with actual statistics showing that in contradiction to existing published data? Or are you one of those folks that think your big city life encompasses the whole of the United States (aka I got mine so screw you mentality)?
        gragas 10y ago
        I'm sorry that you're so oppressed. I grew up in a very conservative, rural state, and I think being LGBT has almost nothing to do with success. Here's a paper that supports my opinion: "Using data from the 2000 U.S. Census, the authors explore two alternative explanations for the sexual orientation wage gap: occupational sorting, and human capital differences. They find that lesbian women earned more than heterosexual women irrespective of marital status, while gay men earned less than their married heterosexual counterparts but more than their cohabitating heterosexual counterparts. Results of a Oaxaca-Blinder decomposition indicate that the relative wage advantages observed for some groups of lesbians and gay men were mainly owing to greater levels of human capital accumulation (particularly education), while occupational sorting had little or no influence." http://www.jstor.org/stable/25249171 http://www.jstor.org/stable/25249171 I respect the fact that you hold an opinion that opposes mine, but you haven't convinced me that you are right and I am wrong. I'm all for disallowing discrimination based on sexuality and gender identity in the workplace. But I see mandates on pronoun use (and other issues of that nature) as the government forcing an ideology upon people. And I certainly don't think being LGBT holds anyone back from reaching their goals in this country.

by gragas 10y ago

norea-armozel 10y ago

you seem to be missing the point. If you oppose civil rights protections for LGBT people but support them for non-LGBT people then you're a hypocrite. But more so you're also for the same socioeconomic system that supports oppression of minorities which means you're acting against your self interest and that of others. And throwing out that you're LGBT doesn't exempt you from criticism from anyone especially me since I'm a bi trans woman. So trying that "but I'm LGBT how can I vote against my self interests" meme doesn't mean much when your ideology opposes individual freedom and the protection thereof.

gragas 10y ago
I simply disagree. I don't believe there is systemic racism or systemic discrimination. If you provide evidence that there is systemic discrimination I would love to see it. Mostly all I've seen is people blaming "the system" for all their failings in life when in reality, no one gives a fuck about what they look like or what their skin color is. This is just like BLM. I am absolutely opposed to racism. I just don't think it exists to the extent that BLM activists think it does. The FBI and numerous other reputable organizations release information about crime and discrimination each year, and absolutely none of it provides evidence in favor of "systemic inequality" against minorities. In fact, it has always done the opposite. It has always shown that minorities commit overwhelmingly more violent crime against non-minorities than the other way around. But that's beside the point. The point I'm trying to make is this: no one cares that you're trans. And no one cares that I'm bi. We all have the same rights. We don't need to be granted more "civil rights" because we fall into some group. Blaming the system is simply not valid unless you can provide evidence.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  My comment has nothing to do with systemic anything. It has to do with the fact that we have laws on the books protecting people on the basis of race, sex, religion, and political affiliation. Are you saying you think those laws are a bad idea? If so, then we can't have kind of discussion here. Those civil rights are a bare minimum for me to consider any social conservative's opinion. If you don't agree to those terms then move on.
  - gragas 10y ago
    You said: >system that supports oppression of minorities which means you're acting against your self interest and that of others To which I said that I don't think we're in a system that does that. I don't think we're "oppressed by the system". I work with trans people and gay people. I'm LGBT myself. Everyone is paid the same. No one cares that some of us are "minorities".
    - norea-armozel 10y ago
      "To which I said that I don't think we're in a system that does that. I don't think we're "oppressed by the system"." That doesn't imply the system oppresses. People oppress people and systems can aid or mitigate that oppression. "I work with trans people and gay people. I'm LGBT myself. Everyone is paid the same." Statistics on employment and wages say otherwise. "No one cares that some of us are "minorities"." Tell that to the evangelical Christians who number at least 50 million in the United States and many of whom own and operate businesses which a couple I've personally worked at while in the closet. In short, your belief is that there's no culture of oppression among social conservatives in the work place, housing, or even medical care? Can you back that up with actual statistics showing that in contradiction to existing published data? Or are you one of those folks that think your big city life encompasses the whole of the United States (aka I got mine so screw you mentality)?
      - gragas 10y ago
        I'm sorry that you're so oppressed. I grew up in a very conservative, rural state, and I think being LGBT has almost nothing to do with success. Here's a paper that supports my opinion: "Using data from the 2000 U.S. Census, the authors explore two alternative explanations for the sexual orientation wage gap: occupational sorting, and human capital differences. They find that lesbian women earned more than heterosexual women irrespective of marital status, while gay men earned less than their married heterosexual counterparts but more than their cohabitating heterosexual counterparts. Results of a Oaxaca-Blinder decomposition indicate that the relative wage advantages observed for some groups of lesbians and gay men were mainly owing to greater levels of human capital accumulation (particularly education), while occupational sorting had little or no influence." http://www.jstor.org/stable/25249171 http://www.jstor.org/stable/25249171 I respect the fact that you hold an opinion that opposes mine, but you haven't convinced me that you are right and I am wrong. I'm all for disallowing discrimination based on sexuality and gender identity in the workplace. But I see mandates on pronoun use (and other issues of that nature) as the government forcing an ideology upon people. And I certainly don't think being LGBT holds anyone back from reaching their goals in this country.