7 ms·

> They refused to give data to the attorney general, and instead, mounted an AD campaign. Companies that take their customer's privacy seriously should be laud

> They refused to give data to the attorney general, and instead, mounted an AD campaign. Companies that take their customer's privacy seriously should be lauded, not condemned.

vkou 10y ago
What about companies who's sole source of business is illegal activity? Ones that produce negative externalities they don't have to pay for? Do we applaud them, too? We're not talking about protecting a political activist. We're talking about illegal rentals.
- wyager 10y ago
  This seems to be the meaningless complaint du jour right now. If you don't like a business or product, just accuse it of introducing negative externalities. No evidence needed! Whatever negligible externalities are introduced by Airbnb, they are vastly outweighed by positive effects like making travel more affordable and busting up the hotel oligopoly.
  - fineIllregister 10y ago
    >hotel oligopoly I felt compelled to point how ridiculous this is. There are tons of lodging options. You can see for yourself with a casual search on any price comparison site.
    - wyager 10y ago
      Most hotels in the US are owned by a small number of huge companies. Check out a few slides into https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/casnu/marriott-organizational-structure https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/casnu/marriott-organizatio... I travel quite a bit for work, and I've stayed at 30+ hotels over the last 2 years. All of them, with the exception of a couple independents in NYC, were owned by Marriott or IHG.
  - davidf18 10y ago
    > Whatever negligible externalities are introduced by Airbnb... NYC is a dangerous city. Many buildings have doormen to keep transients out. AirBnB introduces transients to our buildings. Please value the safety of children, the elderly, and women. A Priceline search of Union City, NJ shows hotels for $60 per night. Union City, NJ is 15 minutes from Times Square by transit.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Do we need to hear about these $60 Union City hotels 7 times in this thread?
      - davidf18 10y ago
        People in this thread keep stating things about how AirBnB provides affordable hotel-like space in NYC as if there is no clean, safe, convenient low-cost alternative. I wonder why they keep disregarding the safety of NYC residents when they can go to Union City, NJ? "For clean, affordable, convenient, hotels when visiting NYC, don't use AirBnB, use the hotels of Union City, NJ"
    - exstudent2 10y ago
      > NYC is a dangerous city Have you ever been to NYC? In 2016 it's far from dangerous. It's probably one of the safer cities in the US. Additionally, AirBnB guests aren't typically dangerous (otherwise AirBnB would be out of business).
      - davidf18 10y ago
        > Have you ever been to NYC? I've lived in NYC for most of my adult life. Do you live in NYC? The homicide rate has declined, but it is still 3 times that of London, per-capita. Moreover, there are other threats besides homicide. People who want affordable hotels can go to Union City, NJ for $60 a night (Priceline) 15 minutes by transit from Times Square.
        exstudent2 10y ago
- nostromo 10y ago
  Not even the attorney general claimed that Airbnb's sole source of business is illegal activity. But regardless, if an attorney general asked The Pirate Bay or Mega for all personally identifying user data, I imagine people would be singing a different tune. Or, similarly, if an attorney general asked Google for everyone who had searched for "piratebay" or "mega".
  - TAForObvReasons 10y ago
    > The site has 225,000 users in the city, but only data from those who rent out their place is being sought, according to sources. That would affect only about 15,000 of New Yorkers. > The legal strike comes just days after AirBnB CEO Brian Chesky tried to appease state lawmakers by agreeing that its users should collect the normal hotel occupancy tax and promising to work with pols to root out bad hosts. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/state-airbnb-article-1.1477934#ixzz2gyyYbfpM http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/state-airbnb-articl... The appropriate summary is: AG specifically wants information about people who actually owe hotel occupancy taxes. They aren't trolling for every AirBnB user. The difference compared to your hypothetical examples is that merely visiting the sites doesn't necessarily constitute illegal behavior. Searching for "mega" in and of itself is not an illegal activity, just like how searching for "marijuana" is not illegal (especially now that certain states have legalized recreational use). The true analogy is asking the torrent trackers to release IP information for connections pertaining to a specific torrent.
keepper 10y ago
That's a very easy way to put it. By their own admission, they knew their users were breaking the law ( attorney general claimed 50%, airbnb claimed 15% ).[1] You can claim "users rights" all you want, but knowing people are using your service to break laws, and just refusing compliance, well gets you to exactly the position they are in. [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579575953059437762 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023034803045795759...
- nostromo 10y ago
  I bet 15% of Google users have used the service to break some sort of law. In fact, I bet it's much higher ("piratebay","where to buy pot","offshoring","visit Cuba") That wouldn't convince me that Google should turn over thousands of user records without a fight. It's important that prosecutors have some sort of burden or proof before obtaining personal information, not after. I hope all companies push back on such requests, even when it's not in their financial interest to do so.
  - yladiz 10y ago
    The difference is that you're not directly breaking the law using Google when you visit a torrent site, and there are ways to remove certain information from Google, like Chilling Effect. However, on Airbnb users were directly using the platform the flout or break the law, which is why they're in trouble.
    - lonelyw0lf 10y ago
      well said - Also they are aiding and abetting in breaking the law which should mean they are equally punishable and should be.
  - CPLX 10y ago
    Sure. But if it's illegal to rent an apartment short term, and you post an ad to rent an apartment short term with reviews of people who did rent an apartment short term in the past, that burden of proof is met.
revelation 10y ago
Only they provided data. But they didn't spend much time anonymising it, instead removing commercial offers in a single Röhm-putsch, falsifying it for any independent analysis: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11116426/airbnb-report-data-purge-new-york-city http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11116426/airbnb-report-dat...
kafkaesq 10y ago
Companies that take their customer's privacy seriously should be lauded, not condemned. Depends on whether the activity they're engaging is legal or not.
timv 10y ago
But companies that earns a substantial portion of the revenue from their users' illegal practices either need to actively participate in the investigation and enforcement of those laws, or expect that new laws will be created to work around them. AirBnB didn't want to solve this problem, so NY solved it without AirBnB's help. It's a predictable outcome, and one that AirBnB was hurtling towards once they stood in the path of any other solution.
- wheelerwj 10y ago
  If a company profits from illegal activity, isn't that also illegal?
  - timv 10y ago
    It depends. If they do it knowingly, then usually yes. But eBay profits from people selling stolen goods. A telco profits when people conspire to commit crimes via email or phone. A pharmaceutical company profits when an addict buys drugs under a fake prescription. But the companies aren't specifically commit a crime just because those things happened and the company received income from it. Companies are expected to do take reasonable steps to limit those sorts of activities, and to appropriately assist law enforcement when they seek to investigate or curb such occurrences.
    - ewar-woowar 10y ago
      eBay can't check the source of a 2nd hand item to discern if it is stolen. Surely if there were landlords renting out entire apartment buildings then the sequential addresses would show up in AirBnB's data as mystreet 1a, mystreet 1b, mystreet 1c and so on? It must have been pretty obvious to the point that a routine check against illegal activity should have carried out.

> They refused to give data to the attorney general, and instead, mounted an AD campaign. Companies that take their customer's privacy seriously should be lauded, not condemned.

vkou 10y ago

What about companies who's sole source of business is illegal activity? Ones that produce negative externalities they don't have to pay for? Do we applaud them, too? We're not talking about protecting a political activist. We're talking about illegal rentals.

wyager 10y ago
This seems to be the meaningless complaint du jour right now. If you don't like a business or product, just accuse it of introducing negative externalities. No evidence needed! Whatever negligible externalities are introduced by Airbnb, they are vastly outweighed by positive effects like making travel more affordable and busting up the hotel oligopoly.
- fineIllregister 10y ago
  >hotel oligopoly I felt compelled to point how ridiculous this is. There are tons of lodging options. You can see for yourself with a casual search on any price comparison site.
  - wyager 10y ago
    Most hotels in the US are owned by a small number of huge companies. Check out a few slides into https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/casnu/marriott-organizational-structure https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/casnu/marriott-organizatio... I travel quite a bit for work, and I've stayed at 30+ hotels over the last 2 years. All of them, with the exception of a couple independents in NYC, were owned by Marriott or IHG.
- davidf18 10y ago
  > Whatever negligible externalities are introduced by Airbnb... NYC is a dangerous city. Many buildings have doormen to keep transients out. AirBnB introduces transients to our buildings. Please value the safety of children, the elderly, and women. A Priceline search of Union City, NJ shows hotels for $60 per night. Union City, NJ is 15 minutes from Times Square by transit.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    Do we need to hear about these $60 Union City hotels 7 times in this thread?
    - davidf18 10y ago
      People in this thread keep stating things about how AirBnB provides affordable hotel-like space in NYC as if there is no clean, safe, convenient low-cost alternative. I wonder why they keep disregarding the safety of NYC residents when they can go to Union City, NJ? "For clean, affordable, convenient, hotels when visiting NYC, don't use AirBnB, use the hotels of Union City, NJ"
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    > NYC is a dangerous city Have you ever been to NYC? In 2016 it's far from dangerous. It's probably one of the safer cities in the US. Additionally, AirBnB guests aren't typically dangerous (otherwise AirBnB would be out of business).
    - davidf18 10y ago
      > Have you ever been to NYC? I've lived in NYC for most of my adult life. Do you live in NYC? The homicide rate has declined, but it is still 3 times that of London, per-capita. Moreover, there are other threats besides homicide. People who want affordable hotels can go to Union City, NJ for $60 a night (Priceline) 15 minutes by transit from Times Square.
      - exstudent2 10y ago
nostromo 10y ago
Not even the attorney general claimed that Airbnb's sole source of business is illegal activity. But regardless, if an attorney general asked The Pirate Bay or Mega for all personally identifying user data, I imagine people would be singing a different tune. Or, similarly, if an attorney general asked Google for everyone who had searched for "piratebay" or "mega".
- TAForObvReasons 10y ago
  > The site has 225,000 users in the city, but only data from those who rent out their place is being sought, according to sources. That would affect only about 15,000 of New Yorkers. > The legal strike comes just days after AirBnB CEO Brian Chesky tried to appease state lawmakers by agreeing that its users should collect the normal hotel occupancy tax and promising to work with pols to root out bad hosts. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/state-airbnb-article-1.1477934#ixzz2gyyYbfpM http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/state-airbnb-articl... The appropriate summary is: AG specifically wants information about people who actually owe hotel occupancy taxes. They aren't trolling for every AirBnB user. The difference compared to your hypothetical examples is that merely visiting the sites doesn't necessarily constitute illegal behavior. Searching for "mega" in and of itself is not an illegal activity, just like how searching for "marijuana" is not illegal (especially now that certain states have legalized recreational use). The true analogy is asking the torrent trackers to release IP information for connections pertaining to a specific torrent.

keepper 10y ago

That's a very easy way to put it. By their own admission, they knew their users were breaking the law ( attorney general claimed 50%, airbnb claimed 15% ).[1] You can claim "users rights" all you want, but knowing people are using your service to break laws, and just refusing compliance, well gets you to exactly the position they are in. [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579575953059437762 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023034803045795759...

nostromo 10y ago
I bet 15% of Google users have used the service to break some sort of law. In fact, I bet it's much higher ("piratebay","where to buy pot","offshoring","visit Cuba") That wouldn't convince me that Google should turn over thousands of user records without a fight. It's important that prosecutors have some sort of burden or proof before obtaining personal information, not after. I hope all companies push back on such requests, even when it's not in their financial interest to do so.
- yladiz 10y ago
  The difference is that you're not directly breaking the law using Google when you visit a torrent site, and there are ways to remove certain information from Google, like Chilling Effect. However, on Airbnb users were directly using the platform the flout or break the law, which is why they're in trouble.
  - lonelyw0lf 10y ago
    well said - Also they are aiding and abetting in breaking the law which should mean they are equally punishable and should be.
- CPLX 10y ago
  Sure. But if it's illegal to rent an apartment short term, and you post an ad to rent an apartment short term with reviews of people who did rent an apartment short term in the past, that burden of proof is met.

revelation 10y ago

Only they provided data. But they didn't spend much time anonymising it, instead removing commercial offers in a single Röhm-putsch, falsifying it for any independent analysis: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11116426/airbnb-report-data-purge-new-york-city http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/25/11116426/airbnb-report-dat...

kafkaesq 10y ago

Companies that take their customer's privacy seriously should be lauded, not condemned. Depends on whether the activity they're engaging is legal or not.

timv 10y ago

But companies that earns a substantial portion of the revenue from their users' illegal practices either need to actively participate in the investigation and enforcement of those laws, or expect that new laws will be created to work around them. AirBnB didn't want to solve this problem, so NY solved it without AirBnB's help. It's a predictable outcome, and one that AirBnB was hurtling towards once they stood in the path of any other solution.

wheelerwj 10y ago
If a company profits from illegal activity, isn't that also illegal?
- timv 10y ago
  It depends. If they do it knowingly, then usually yes. But eBay profits from people selling stolen goods. A telco profits when people conspire to commit crimes via email or phone. A pharmaceutical company profits when an addict buys drugs under a fake prescription. But the companies aren't specifically commit a crime just because those things happened and the company received income from it. Companies are expected to do take reasonable steps to limit those sorts of activities, and to appropriately assist law enforcement when they seek to investigate or curb such occurrences.
  - ewar-woowar 10y ago
    eBay can't check the source of a 2nd hand item to discern if it is stolen. Surely if there were landlords renting out entire apartment buildings then the sequential addresses would show up in AirBnB's data as mystreet 1a, mystreet 1b, mystreet 1c and so on? It must have been pretty obvious to the point that a routine check against illegal activity should have carried out.