7 ms·

> The suburban house people complain that it costs them 1-2k Euro to pay for the fibre, but they pay for it. I think that's the difference - the costs are upfr

by gopalv 10y ago

> The suburban house people complain that it costs them 1-2k Euro to pay for the fibre, but they pay for it. I think that's the difference - the costs are upfront, not paid by capital/loan with the subscriber having to pay for it eventually. Rationally, most people wouldn't want to pay that much into a US cable/net provider, considering their historical experience with them.

ajford 10y ago
I would totally pay 1-2k upfront (assuming I owned the home or was planing to stay at least 5 years) if I "owned" the fiber and could choose my own ISP. At that level of competition, it could easily drive the prices down into the $10-20 range for high bandwidth, which would probably break even with current cable internet prices now. I pay nearly $100/mo for 300Mbps/20Mbps since I have about 9 active users in my home. I pay about $1.2k per year in internet, so $1-2k upfront for cheaper monthly pricing and more competitive features.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Most of the monthly fee you pay does not go into paying off the initial investment. For example, Verizon wireline's EBITDA margin is 25%. So out of your $100 bill, $75 goes to maintenance, customer service, etc. and $25 is left before paying interest in debt used to build the network, paying taxes, or accounting for the depreciating value of equipment marching toward obsolescence.
- z3t4 10y ago
  The carrier owns the fiber, but you still have to pay $2500 upfront plus a $100-500 monthly fee. Most of the time you can choose the ISP though. If you live in a co-operative you can own the fiber yourself and buy transit. Then there's the municipal fiber carriers that will own the fiber, but you only pay the prime cost resulting in lower upfront and monthly fees, and if you live on the countryside you can get a government grant, install the fiber yourself, then sell it for 1$ to one of the carriers usually resulting in low monthly fee.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Is this in Sweden? In the U.S., if a carrier wants to build fiber in a town or suburb, they have to build all the fiber first, then hope people sign up for $70-$100 per month with no money paid up front. What you describe sounds like a great model. It'd be very difficult to do it in the U.S.
    - z3t4 10y ago
      Yes Sweden. The Carriers only own the last mile, then they rent fiber from the backbone. Some carriers have backbone fiber, but most of it is owned by government funded Tier 1 Carrier "Telia" that makes sure all providers and Carriers get equal access.
      - rayiner 10y ago
        Maybe that's why there is so much more fiber deployment in Sweden than in the U.S.? The fact that people are willing to pay the infrastructure costs up front? No carrier would be able to get a franchise under those terms in the U.S. What do carriers in Sweden do with people who can't afford to pay the up front fee? EDIT: Looking at Stokab, it looks like they don't require an up-front payment. But Stokab built its network over two decades, starting out in the core city and expanding based on market demand: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/sites/digital-agenda/files/Stokab.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/sites/digital-age.... That model is illegal in almost every city in the U.S. Any carrier must agree to wire up a whole city on a very short timeline, even areas where there isn't sufficient market demand. Verizon was given less than 8 years to wire up all of New York City.
        z3t4 10y ago
        You get an offer to pay it off in like three or more years. But if you can't you don't get any fiber. But you can often install afterwards if there is fiber in the area. Stokab is a municipal and non-profit carrier and almost all cities have one of those, competing with the private carriers. The municipal often requires 70% + coverage, witch is very hard to get in a small non tech village with old people. Stokab is a bit different because they have about 1.5 million people living in their area witch is dense compared to the rest of Sweden. The private carriers don't even bother if they can't get a few hundred subscribers in the area. So if you live in a small village, but not small enough to get a government grant it can be though. When you start digging up the streets you must allow competitors to also join, so when one carrier has decided to start digging, you often get offers from other Carriers too, with a slightly lower price. So there's usually many carriers in the same area.
amazon2 10y ago
They might pay, if they got to chose their provider freely like they can in Sweden, where they build open access networks where any ISP can provide service.
- mjevans 10y ago
  I bet you could build it in to the sale price of reselling a home. IE this improvement must be made to make it distinct in the market.
  - rdl 10y ago
    I would happily pay 100-200k if I could capitalize it on a 30y 0-3% mortgage to bring fiber from a carrier neutral facility (say, the Westin Building in Seattle) to a farm. It's about $10k/km for aerial fiber and $50k/km for buried fiber in most places (far higher in a city, but the distances are shorter.) There's probably a reasonable market doing this at $10-20k/house. There's clearly a market for multi-family dwellings like condos/apartment buildings (webpass, condointernet, etc. have shown), but maybe the next step will be neighborhoods pre-wired with fiber to some kind of switchbox with your choice of carrier coming in.
sunflowerfly 10y ago
In the US we typically capitalize utility projects over long time periods, e.g. 30 years. When you pay your water bill the loan is added into the base payment before usage. We built electricity to virtually every home in the US, we could build fiber too.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's notable that the phone network was built by a government sanctioned monopoly that was permitted to be quite profitable for most of its existence. Pull AT&T annual reports from the 1950s and 1960s and compare them to the financials of Verizon's wireline division today.

by gopalv 10y ago

ajford 10y ago

I would totally pay 1-2k upfront (assuming I owned the home or was planing to stay at least 5 years) if I "owned" the fiber and could choose my own ISP. At that level of competition, it could easily drive the prices down into the $10-20 range for high bandwidth, which would probably break even with current cable internet prices now. I pay nearly $100/mo for 300Mbps/20Mbps since I have about 9 active users in my home. I pay about $1.2k per year in internet, so $1-2k upfront for cheaper monthly pricing and more competitive features.

rayiner 10y ago
Most of the monthly fee you pay does not go into paying off the initial investment. For example, Verizon wireline's EBITDA margin is 25%. So out of your $100 bill, $75 goes to maintenance, customer service, etc. and $25 is left before paying interest in debt used to build the network, paying taxes, or accounting for the depreciating value of equipment marching toward obsolescence.
z3t4 10y ago
The carrier owns the fiber, but you still have to pay $2500 upfront plus a $100-500 monthly fee. Most of the time you can choose the ISP though. If you live in a co-operative you can own the fiber yourself and buy transit. Then there's the municipal fiber carriers that will own the fiber, but you only pay the prime cost resulting in lower upfront and monthly fees, and if you live on the countryside you can get a government grant, install the fiber yourself, then sell it for 1$ to one of the carriers usually resulting in low monthly fee.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Is this in Sweden? In the U.S., if a carrier wants to build fiber in a town or suburb, they have to build all the fiber first, then hope people sign up for $70-$100 per month with no money paid up front. What you describe sounds like a great model. It'd be very difficult to do it in the U.S.
  - z3t4 10y ago
    Yes Sweden. The Carriers only own the last mile, then they rent fiber from the backbone. Some carriers have backbone fiber, but most of it is owned by government funded Tier 1 Carrier "Telia" that makes sure all providers and Carriers get equal access.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      Maybe that's why there is so much more fiber deployment in Sweden than in the U.S.? The fact that people are willing to pay the infrastructure costs up front? No carrier would be able to get a franchise under those terms in the U.S. What do carriers in Sweden do with people who can't afford to pay the up front fee? EDIT: Looking at Stokab, it looks like they don't require an up-front payment. But Stokab built its network over two decades, starting out in the core city and expanding based on market demand: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/sites/digital-agenda/files/Stokab.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/sites/digital-age.... That model is illegal in almost every city in the U.S. Any carrier must agree to wire up a whole city on a very short timeline, even areas where there isn't sufficient market demand. Verizon was given less than 8 years to wire up all of New York City.
      - z3t4 10y ago
        You get an offer to pay it off in like three or more years. But if you can't you don't get any fiber. But you can often install afterwards if there is fiber in the area. Stokab is a municipal and non-profit carrier and almost all cities have one of those, competing with the private carriers. The municipal often requires 70% + coverage, witch is very hard to get in a small non tech village with old people. Stokab is a bit different because they have about 1.5 million people living in their area witch is dense compared to the rest of Sweden. The private carriers don't even bother if they can't get a few hundred subscribers in the area. So if you live in a small village, but not small enough to get a government grant it can be though. When you start digging up the streets you must allow competitors to also join, so when one carrier has decided to start digging, you often get offers from other Carriers too, with a slightly lower price. So there's usually many carriers in the same area.

amazon2 10y ago

They might pay, if they got to chose their provider freely like they can in Sweden, where they build open access networks where any ISP can provide service.

mjevans 10y ago
I bet you could build it in to the sale price of reselling a home. IE this improvement must be made to make it distinct in the market.
- rdl 10y ago
  I would happily pay 100-200k if I could capitalize it on a 30y 0-3% mortgage to bring fiber from a carrier neutral facility (say, the Westin Building in Seattle) to a farm. It's about $10k/km for aerial fiber and $50k/km for buried fiber in most places (far higher in a city, but the distances are shorter.) There's probably a reasonable market doing this at $10-20k/house. There's clearly a market for multi-family dwellings like condos/apartment buildings (webpass, condointernet, etc. have shown), but maybe the next step will be neighborhoods pre-wired with fiber to some kind of switchbox with your choice of carrier coming in.

sunflowerfly 10y ago

In the US we typically capitalize utility projects over long time periods, e.g. 30 years. When you pay your water bill the loan is added into the base payment before usage. We built electricity to virtually every home in the US, we could build fiber too.

rayiner 10y ago
It's notable that the phone network was built by a government sanctioned monopoly that was permitted to be quite profitable for most of its existence. Pull AT&T annual reports from the 1950s and 1960s and compare them to the financials of Verizon's wireline division today.