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Do you think people know they are paying for cheap Chinese labor when they purchase? If not, do you think they would care? When I read something like,"100% fre

Do you think people know they are paying for cheap Chinese labor when they purchase? If not, do you think they would care? When I read something like,"100% free-hand painted onto a canvas by a master artist," my impression isn't, "we outsource the painting to cheap Chinese labor." My impression is clearly wrong. I suspect others have this impression though. I think the concept is cool, but I'm not sure people would be so willing to pay if they knew some desperate artist in China was getting paid below minimum wage to create the artwork. I guess what I'm saying is you are selling the idea of a premium service at a great price—too good to be true—and it is, because it's not true. Or maybe it just doesn't matter. I don't know. Also, reading this over my tone sounds a little condescending. I don't mean to be. Generally curious what others think about this.

chrischen 10y ago
I think you're coming to this with preconceived notions. Not all artists registered are "cheap Chinese labor," and that label is also disparaging to the artists that do happen to be in China, and are Chinese, including myself, as I was born in China. I wouldn't like it if you called Instapainting a piece of work produced by cheap Chinese labor (which it could very well be described since I only made about 36k salary in the first year). That being said, for this product category (photo to painting), nearly all sellers on Etsy, Ebay, or other sites, are dominated by Chinese sellers. We don't produce the product, rather these sellers are selling through us. > I think the concept is cool, but I'm not sure people would be so willing to pay if they knew some desperate artist in China was getting paid below minimum wage to create the artwork. I guess what I'm saying is you are selling the idea of a premium service at a great price—too good to be true—and it is, because it's not true. I can't guarantee all the wages the artists are paid, as many sellers on the site are simply reselling or doling orders out to subcontractors (the artists). However from the ones I've visited, they are paid well above minimum wage, and in fact above the average salary in China. Most people do know that the paintings come from China, and I'm actually one of the only sites that publicly reveals this (I released an article about the painters in China on the company blog). But as you can also understand, putting big text on our home page that says "Get paintings from cheap Chinese labor" would sound condescending, not be 100% true (since we're a marketplace behind the scenes), and probably negatively affect sales as well.
- themagician 10y ago
  You are totally correct. The Western notion of China and Chinese labor is totally wrong. Still, do you think people would care if they knew? I ask because I would have totally bought this had I stumbled onto it yesterday not knowing what I know now. I would have bought this for a friend and never thought twice about it. After reading this post I definitely would not purchase. Irrational? Maybe. Edit: I see your response above. Thanks. I may actually purchase. Just want to think about it. :)
  - chrischen 10y ago
    I got a lot of publicity from an article about the Chinese painters that I published on Medium, so I think many people do know. Some people take issue with it, understandably, but also for the wrong reasons. The article is also linked at the bottom of the homepage, albeit it is a bit hidden. You probably take issue with it because you think you are exploiting the workers, when in reality they want you to buy from them and witholding your purchase hurts them economically. The bulk of the money you spend goes to the artists, after all. Otherwise China wouldn't enact such protectionist trade policies that encourage mass exports. If you take issue with it because you want to encourage domestic economy growth, then avoiding imported Chinese paintings would be proper, however not all our sellers are Chinese. We will soon be adding filters to discriminate by country of origin.
  - bdr 10y ago
    "I'm biased against Chinese labor. Do you think anyone is biased against Chinese labor?"
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >You are totally correct. The Western notion of China and Chinese labor is totally wrong. Well, not that wrong. Western businessmen have a very accurate notion of Chinese labor, and opportunities from lower wages / mass production there.
klipt 10y ago
Being a master artist and being cheap aren't mutually exclusive. It sounds like location arbitrage: China has a lower cost of living than the US. Not to mention that even a master Chinese artist would have a tough time getting a green card. But it looks like instapainting is basically a middle-man which could easily be replaced by a Chinese website (so long as they hire a good translator).
- chrischen 10y ago
  It's also protectionist Chinese policies, weak manipulated Chinese RMB. China promotes exports, and buys USD to weaken the RMB, which is why so much manual labor funnels through China and why it's cheaper to buy from China. You'll see that that the whole product category of photo replica paintings are dominated by mostly Chinese sellers on Ebay, etsy, and among our other competitors. Actually, Instapainting's rise is due to my replacing the Chinese middlemen with software (disclaimer: not all artists on our site are Chinese), which is even cheaper!
kirykl 10y ago
If what you're asking is true - that desperate Chinese painters are being exploited to hand paint pictures of happy memories for wealthy foreigners, this is quite dystopian. But I'm not sure that's a fair representation
johnwheeler 10y ago
This is crazy. The GDP per capita in China is totally different than the US and Europe. You're accusing Chen of exploiting these people, but it's more plausible he's providing them with opportunities they're grateful for. The idea that he's running a virtual sweatshop has more to do with your own biases and preconceived notions than reality.
- dimino 10y ago
  I have a more general question, but is this what the "gig" economy looks like in China? Would Instapainting and the work it produces for the folks doing the paintings count as "gigs"? Could this question (Are you really paying them enough or just exploiting them?) be asked of anything like Uber?
hammock 10y ago
>Do you think people know they are paying for cheap Chinese labor when they purchase? If not, do you think they would care? Doesn't matter. This service is for the bourgeoisie, today's young professionals who want to emulate the painted family portraits they have seen in rich homes. The fact that it comes from a "startup" probably adds to the coolness. These customers wouldn't know how to find a local portrait artist if they wanted to, nor would they be able to afford it.
GarrisonPrime 10y ago
He's creating work for Chinese workers. Who are we to say what kind of pay the Chinese "should" be requesting? It's rather elitist of us to be telling them they are being taken advantage of. This is a job they've sought out and want to keep! It's the best option available to them.
- chrischen 10y ago
  > He's creating work for Chinese workers. Until I expand the market further, I wouldn't really even give myself that much credit. I think most of my business comes from replacing the established middle men with my software solution. Although it is my ultimate goal to give more artists (everywhere in the world) more business!
  - hiou 10y ago
    You really don't think the middlemen are the ones doing business on your platform? You've simply squeezed the margins so that the artists get even less.
- mempko 10y ago
  It's elitist to think people are not desperate and only make rational choices.
- galfarragem 10y ago
  > He's creating work for Chinese workers. I would award him a medal.
plainOldText 10y ago
Being located in China, and doing work for less money than your western counterparts does not make you any less of an artist.
sleepyhead 10y ago
Easy now Donald.
jpindar 10y ago
So Chinese people can't be master artists? Which nationalities can be?

chrischen 10y ago

I think you're coming to this with preconceived notions. Not all artists registered are "cheap Chinese labor," and that label is also disparaging to the artists that do happen to be in China, and are Chinese, including myself, as I was born in China. I wouldn't like it if you called Instapainting a piece of work produced by cheap Chinese labor (which it could very well be described since I only made about 36k salary in the first year). That being said, for this product category (photo to painting), nearly all sellers on Etsy, Ebay, or other sites, are dominated by Chinese sellers. We don't produce the product, rather these sellers are selling through us. > I think the concept is cool, but I'm not sure people would be so willing to pay if they knew some desperate artist in China was getting paid below minimum wage to create the artwork. I guess what I'm saying is you are selling the idea of a premium service at a great price—too good to be true—and it is, because it's not true. I can't guarantee all the wages the artists are paid, as many sellers on the site are simply reselling or doling orders out to subcontractors (the artists). However from the ones I've visited, they are paid well above minimum wage, and in fact above the average salary in China. Most people do know that the paintings come from China, and I'm actually one of the only sites that publicly reveals this (I released an article about the painters in China on the company blog). But as you can also understand, putting big text on our home page that says "Get paintings from cheap Chinese labor" would sound condescending, not be 100% true (since we're a marketplace behind the scenes), and probably negatively affect sales as well.

themagician 10y ago
You are totally correct. The Western notion of China and Chinese labor is totally wrong. Still, do you think people would care if they knew? I ask because I would have totally bought this had I stumbled onto it yesterday not knowing what I know now. I would have bought this for a friend and never thought twice about it. After reading this post I definitely would not purchase. Irrational? Maybe. Edit: I see your response above. Thanks. I may actually purchase. Just want to think about it. :)
- chrischen 10y ago
  I got a lot of publicity from an article about the Chinese painters that I published on Medium, so I think many people do know. Some people take issue with it, understandably, but also for the wrong reasons. The article is also linked at the bottom of the homepage, albeit it is a bit hidden. You probably take issue with it because you think you are exploiting the workers, when in reality they want you to buy from them and witholding your purchase hurts them economically. The bulk of the money you spend goes to the artists, after all. Otherwise China wouldn't enact such protectionist trade policies that encourage mass exports. If you take issue with it because you want to encourage domestic economy growth, then avoiding imported Chinese paintings would be proper, however not all our sellers are Chinese. We will soon be adding filters to discriminate by country of origin.
- bdr 10y ago
  "I'm biased against Chinese labor. Do you think anyone is biased against Chinese labor?"
- coldtea 10y ago
  >You are totally correct. The Western notion of China and Chinese labor is totally wrong. Well, not that wrong. Western businessmen have a very accurate notion of Chinese labor, and opportunities from lower wages / mass production there.

klipt 10y ago

Being a master artist and being cheap aren't mutually exclusive. It sounds like location arbitrage: China has a lower cost of living than the US. Not to mention that even a master Chinese artist would have a tough time getting a green card. But it looks like instapainting is basically a middle-man which could easily be replaced by a Chinese website (so long as they hire a good translator).

chrischen 10y ago
It's also protectionist Chinese policies, weak manipulated Chinese RMB. China promotes exports, and buys USD to weaken the RMB, which is why so much manual labor funnels through China and why it's cheaper to buy from China. You'll see that that the whole product category of photo replica paintings are dominated by mostly Chinese sellers on Ebay, etsy, and among our other competitors. Actually, Instapainting's rise is due to my replacing the Chinese middlemen with software (disclaimer: not all artists on our site are Chinese), which is even cheaper!

kirykl 10y ago

If what you're asking is true - that desperate Chinese painters are being exploited to hand paint pictures of happy memories for wealthy foreigners, this is quite dystopian. But I'm not sure that's a fair representation

johnwheeler 10y ago

This is crazy. The GDP per capita in China is totally different than the US and Europe. You're accusing Chen of exploiting these people, but it's more plausible he's providing them with opportunities they're grateful for. The idea that he's running a virtual sweatshop has more to do with your own biases and preconceived notions than reality.

dimino 10y ago
I have a more general question, but is this what the "gig" economy looks like in China? Would Instapainting and the work it produces for the folks doing the paintings count as "gigs"? Could this question (Are you really paying them enough or just exploiting them?) be asked of anything like Uber?

hammock 10y ago

>Do you think people know they are paying for cheap Chinese labor when they purchase? If not, do you think they would care? Doesn't matter. This service is for the bourgeoisie, today's young professionals who want to emulate the painted family portraits they have seen in rich homes. The fact that it comes from a "startup" probably adds to the coolness. These customers wouldn't know how to find a local portrait artist if they wanted to, nor would they be able to afford it.

GarrisonPrime 10y ago

He's creating work for Chinese workers. Who are we to say what kind of pay the Chinese "should" be requesting? It's rather elitist of us to be telling them they are being taken advantage of. This is a job they've sought out and want to keep! It's the best option available to them.

chrischen 10y ago
> He's creating work for Chinese workers. Until I expand the market further, I wouldn't really even give myself that much credit. I think most of my business comes from replacing the established middle men with my software solution. Although it is my ultimate goal to give more artists (everywhere in the world) more business!
- hiou 10y ago
  You really don't think the middlemen are the ones doing business on your platform? You've simply squeezed the margins so that the artists get even less.
mempko 10y ago
It's elitist to think people are not desperate and only make rational choices.
galfarragem 10y ago
> He's creating work for Chinese workers. I would award him a medal.

plainOldText 10y ago

Being located in China, and doing work for less money than your western counterparts does not make you any less of an artist.

sleepyhead 10y ago

Easy now Donald.

jpindar 10y ago

So Chinese people can't be master artists? Which nationalities can be?