5 ms·

MS is definitely taking the steps in the hardware department that Apple has been lagging behind on. But I still feel Windows itself is not a productive OS. I'm

by jhwhite 10y ago

MS is definitely taking the steps in the hardware department that Apple has been lagging behind on. But I still feel Windows itself is not a productive OS. I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Being required to use my pinky to try and hit CTRL instead of my thumb to hit COMMAND to do simple things like copy and paste is HUGE to me. I didn't use a Windows machine for 3 years and when I did need to use Windows again it was extremely frustrating. I remember switching from Windows to OSX and it felt more natural. Anyway, MS is definitely making some cool stuff and I like the direction they're going. But I'm still not ready to go back.

bryanlarsen 10y ago
Sure, the location of the control key on Windows is bad. But the location of the command key on OSX is worse. At least on Windows you can use the meat of your hand to press the control key as long as you have a decent keyboard. But on both OS's remapping it to caps is even better.
vvanders 10y ago
Funny, I feel the same way about OSX. Every time I jump over to a macbook I reach for Win + Arrow keys to move windows around. I rarely use the mouse on windows, I think it's just a matter of familiarization on both OSes.
- jhwhite 10y ago
  I do love the ability to use Win + arrow key to move windows around on Windows!
dcole2929 10y ago
There is a difference between not knowing the key bindings and there not being any. See link below. That's a non comprehensive list of just system shortcuts and doesn't even attempt to enumerate application specific ones. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/126449 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/126449
WayneBro 10y ago
> I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Incorrect. You can operate the entirety of Windows with just the keyboard. Please tell me what you cannot do with the keyboard in Windows and I'll straighten you out. OS X/macOS is definitely worse with regards to keyboard acceleration. For instance, here's a glaring omission on Apple's part: try opening any window from the menu bar (e.g. the BetterSnapTools preferences dialog) then switch away from it with ALT+TAB and you'll be unable to switch back to it.
- dom96 10y ago
  A slightly different example that infuriates me about macOS. How do I toggle the visibility of hidden files in Finder? To be honest I don't know if there is a shortcut for this in Windows, but what infuriates me is the inconsistency between Finder and the native macOS file browser dialog which allows you to press Cmd+Shift+., why can't the same shortcut be available in Finder?
  - Osmium 10y ago
    > press Cmd+Shift+., why can't the same shortcut be available in Finder? FYI, I'd never heard of this shortcut before but just tried it in the Finder and it worked just fine (to toggle visibility of invisible files).
    - dom96 10y ago
      Which version of macOS are you on?
      - Osmium 10y ago
        Sierra 10.12 (16A320)
- reitanqild 10y ago
  I came to Mac in 2009 expecting great keyboard shortcuts because of everything I had heard. IMO they were fewer and less consistent than Windows and Linux shortcuts at the time and a huge disappointment. (Example: no consistent way of selecting from cursor to end of line - there was no end button and which modifier to use varied with the application you used...! I have joked that the superior touchpad on the Mac is an adaptation to make it usable despite its inconsistent keyboard shorcut handling.)
thesimpsons1022 10y ago
you can't really take your issues with pinky movement and apply it to say windows isn't productive. all it means is you aren't productive with it. i use both windows and mac everyday and there is zero slowdown for me with shortcuts
ianmcgowan 10y ago
Really? That's weird - I'm a relatively recent convert to OSX, and find the opposite. E.g. move a window, with alt-spc, M; every dialog box that opens can be addressed by hitting a letter for the option you want; default buttons are bolded so you know what hitting enter will do, etc. I've had to work on Windows boxes with no mouse and found it tough, but possible. Still have to reach for the mouse a lot in OSX. And don't get me started on home and end ;-) Perhaps it's a question of muscle memory and discoverability? I love spotlight, and installed magnet (http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/ http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/), and slowly getting there.
strictnein 10y ago
I use Apple keyboards with windows based products. The issue isn't that the MS shortcuts for things are any better or worse, it's just that you're not used to hitting CTRL. As a developer, my pinky basically rests on the CTRL by default when I'm on a windows system. When I'm on a Mac my thumb rests on the Command key.
- jhwhite 10y ago
  I have short stubby fingers and to get my pinky to always rest on the CTRL key is really uncomfortable. :( I've tried it.
blackoil 10y ago
I am using company provide rMBP for 2 years and I like to linux like terminal/bash, but otherwise I can't find any reason it is so revered. Multi monitor support sucks so bad, I have to wiggle mouse few seconds at bottom of monitor before it is taken as active, but boy popup of active window still opens on 2nd monitor. I minimize Firefox it goes down in Dock, now when I press Cmd+Tab, Firefox is in the applications list but the window doesn't comes back. I have to click on it with mouse to open it. And maximize screen button now defaults to new full screen Desktop, which looks good if you use trackpad and swipe around, but with keyboard it adds no value, just distracts a lot, and apps like Chrome/Finder if I click option+maximize, they believe I want some sort of horizontal/vertical expansion. /rant Edit: Even greater WTF is dialog boxes, I use tab to focus on a button, press enter and viola the default action is taken, ignoring the keyboard focus, so if I don't want to save file, I have to use trackpad :|
- markdog12 10y ago
  Try keyboard prefs: tick off "All Controls" http://osxdaily.com/2010/02/26/use-the-tab-key-to-switch-between-dialog-buttons-in-mac-os-x/ http://osxdaily.com/2010/02/26/use-the-tab-key-to-switch-bet...
  - blackoil 10y ago
    tab keys is good, what I meant is if I close unsaved file in textWrangler, it shows `Do you want to save` dialog. I press tab to focus 'Don't Save' button, press enter, but instead of closing file without saving I get 'Save As' dialog since enter key ignores the current focus and always triggers the default action
    - markdog12 10y ago
      Sorry, ic now, that's a pretty shitty bug.
      - gurkendoktor 10y ago
        It's not a bug, just an odd convention, like using Enter to rename files in Finder. Space = focused button, Enter = default button. When a dialog is shown, the focus is never on the default button, so there are always two choices that you can make (Space/Enter) without using the mouse or the tab key at all.
blakeyrat 10y ago
> But I still feel Windows itself is not a productive OS. I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Maybe you should read the help file instead of going on "feelings". Every UI widget in Windows can be operated from the keyboard. > Being required to use my pinky to try and hit CTRL instead of my thumb to hit COMMAND to do simple things like copy and paste is HUGE to me. Oh come on. You're just making up reasons to dislike it at this point. "The shortcut key is a half-inch further away! THIS IS AMAZINGLY IMPORTANT MIND-BLOWING SUPER-FLAW!"
- jhwhite 10y ago
  Actually I'm not making stuff up. I use to wear a fitbit charge hr and the first week I had to go back to using Windows you could see when I would get frustrated with Windows by my HR going up in the app. And that was an example, not an exhaustive list. But honestly, yes the fact that the ctrl is so important to keyboard shortcuts on Windows but is in such a difficult (for me) position to get to is a big deal. New tab, new window, find in page, open dev tools, and many many more, require using ctrl on Windows.
marsrover 10y ago
> I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. I think the key you're looking for is the 'Alt' key. You'll find a lot of doors open up for you on Windows when you use it. edit: just to clarify. If you see a menu or anything with a letter that is underlined, Alt + Letter will choose that target. In addition, pushing down Alt will sometimes show which menus have keyboard options.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
thoth 10y ago
>Being required to use my pinky to try and hit CTRL I use Windows, OSX, and Linux fairly often (mostly Windows, then OSX, Linux here and there). For me, the most frustrating thing about Windows, a minor point but it bugs me, is that you can't remap the CTRL key without having admin rights. This is a user-controlled preference the OS has in the box, in OSX and Linux distros I've used. On Windows, you need to edit the registry (!!) or use the SysInternals driver, which requires Admin rights. I haven't found another way to do it that doesn't require installing more software and/or admin rights.

by jhwhite 10y ago

bryanlarsen 10y ago

Sure, the location of the control key on Windows is bad. But the location of the command key on OSX is worse. At least on Windows you can use the meat of your hand to press the control key as long as you have a decent keyboard. But on both OS's remapping it to caps is even better.

vvanders 10y ago

Funny, I feel the same way about OSX. Every time I jump over to a macbook I reach for Win + Arrow keys to move windows around. I rarely use the mouse on windows, I think it's just a matter of familiarization on both OSes.

jhwhite 10y ago
I do love the ability to use Win + arrow key to move windows around on Windows!

dcole2929 10y ago

There is a difference between not knowing the key bindings and there not being any. See link below. That's a non comprehensive list of just system shortcuts and doesn't even attempt to enumerate application specific ones. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/126449 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/126449

WayneBro 10y ago

> I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Incorrect. You can operate the entirety of Windows with just the keyboard. Please tell me what you cannot do with the keyboard in Windows and I'll straighten you out. OS X/macOS is definitely worse with regards to keyboard acceleration. For instance, here's a glaring omission on Apple's part: try opening any window from the menu bar (e.g. the BetterSnapTools preferences dialog) then switch away from it with ALT+TAB and you'll be unable to switch back to it.

dom96 10y ago
A slightly different example that infuriates me about macOS. How do I toggle the visibility of hidden files in Finder? To be honest I don't know if there is a shortcut for this in Windows, but what infuriates me is the inconsistency between Finder and the native macOS file browser dialog which allows you to press Cmd+Shift+., why can't the same shortcut be available in Finder?
- Osmium 10y ago
  > press Cmd+Shift+., why can't the same shortcut be available in Finder? FYI, I'd never heard of this shortcut before but just tried it in the Finder and it worked just fine (to toggle visibility of invisible files).
  - dom96 10y ago
    Which version of macOS are you on?
    - Osmium 10y ago
      Sierra 10.12 (16A320)
reitanqild 10y ago
I came to Mac in 2009 expecting great keyboard shortcuts because of everything I had heard. IMO they were fewer and less consistent than Windows and Linux shortcuts at the time and a huge disappointment. (Example: no consistent way of selecting from cursor to end of line - there was no end button and which modifier to use varied with the application you used...! I have joked that the superior touchpad on the Mac is an adaptation to make it usable despite its inconsistent keyboard shorcut handling.)

thesimpsons1022 10y ago

you can't really take your issues with pinky movement and apply it to say windows isn't productive. all it means is you aren't productive with it. i use both windows and mac everyday and there is zero slowdown for me with shortcuts

ianmcgowan 10y ago

Really? That's weird - I'm a relatively recent convert to OSX, and find the opposite. E.g. move a window, with alt-spc, M; every dialog box that opens can be addressed by hitting a letter for the option you want; default buttons are bolded so you know what hitting enter will do, etc. I've had to work on Windows boxes with no mouse and found it tough, but possible. Still have to reach for the mouse a lot in OSX. And don't get me started on home and end ;-) Perhaps it's a question of muscle memory and discoverability? I love spotlight, and installed magnet (http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/ http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/), and slowly getting there.

strictnein 10y ago

I use Apple keyboards with windows based products. The issue isn't that the MS shortcuts for things are any better or worse, it's just that you're not used to hitting CTRL. As a developer, my pinky basically rests on the CTRL by default when I'm on a windows system. When I'm on a Mac my thumb rests on the Command key.

jhwhite 10y ago
I have short stubby fingers and to get my pinky to always rest on the CTRL key is really uncomfortable. :( I've tried it.

blackoil 10y ago

I am using company provide rMBP for 2 years and I like to linux like terminal/bash, but otherwise I can't find any reason it is so revered. Multi monitor support sucks so bad, I have to wiggle mouse few seconds at bottom of monitor before it is taken as active, but boy popup of active window still opens on 2nd monitor. I minimize Firefox it goes down in Dock, now when I press Cmd+Tab, Firefox is in the applications list but the window doesn't comes back. I have to click on it with mouse to open it. And maximize screen button now defaults to new full screen Desktop, which looks good if you use trackpad and swipe around, but with keyboard it adds no value, just distracts a lot, and apps like Chrome/Finder if I click option+maximize, they believe I want some sort of horizontal/vertical expansion. /rant Edit: Even greater WTF is dialog boxes, I use tab to focus on a button, press enter and viola the default action is taken, ignoring the keyboard focus, so if I don't want to save file, I have to use trackpad :|

markdog12 10y ago
Try keyboard prefs: tick off "All Controls" http://osxdaily.com/2010/02/26/use-the-tab-key-to-switch-between-dialog-buttons-in-mac-os-x/ http://osxdaily.com/2010/02/26/use-the-tab-key-to-switch-bet...
- blackoil 10y ago
  tab keys is good, what I meant is if I close unsaved file in textWrangler, it shows `Do you want to save` dialog. I press tab to focus 'Don't Save' button, press enter, but instead of closing file without saving I get 'Save As' dialog since enter key ignores the current focus and always triggers the default action
  - markdog12 10y ago
    Sorry, ic now, that's a pretty shitty bug.
    - gurkendoktor 10y ago
      It's not a bug, just an odd convention, like using Enter to rename files in Finder. Space = focused button, Enter = default button. When a dialog is shown, the focus is never on the default button, so there are always two choices that you can make (Space/Enter) without using the mouse or the tab key at all.

blakeyrat 10y ago

> But I still feel Windows itself is not a productive OS. I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Maybe you should read the help file instead of going on "feelings". Every UI widget in Windows can be operated from the keyboard. > Being required to use my pinky to try and hit CTRL instead of my thumb to hit COMMAND to do simple things like copy and paste is HUGE to me. Oh come on. You're just making up reasons to dislike it at this point. "The shortcut key is a half-inch further away! THIS IS AMAZINGLY IMPORTANT MIND-BLOWING SUPER-FLAW!"

jhwhite 10y ago
Actually I'm not making stuff up. I use to wear a fitbit charge hr and the first week I had to go back to using Windows you could see when I would get frustrated with Windows by my HR going up in the app. And that was an example, not an exhaustive list. But honestly, yes the fact that the ctrl is so important to keyboard shortcuts on Windows but is in such a difficult (for me) position to get to is a big deal. New tab, new window, find in page, open dev tools, and many many more, require using ctrl on Windows.

marsrover 10y ago

> I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. I think the key you're looking for is the 'Alt' key. You'll find a lot of doors open up for you on Windows when you use it. edit: just to clarify. If you see a menu or anything with a letter that is underlined, Alt + Letter will choose that target. In addition, pushing down Alt will sometimes show which menus have keyboard options.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

thoth 10y ago

>Being required to use my pinky to try and hit CTRL I use Windows, OSX, and Linux fairly often (mostly Windows, then OSX, Linux here and there). For me, the most frustrating thing about Windows, a minor point but it bugs me, is that you can't remap the CTRL key without having admin rights. This is a user-controlled preference the OS has in the box, in OSX and Linux distros I've used. On Windows, you need to edit the registry (!!) or use the SysInternals driver, which requires Admin rights. I haven't found another way to do it that doesn't require installing more software and/or admin rights.