14 ms·

Microsoft Windows 10 Event

74 points by kenrick95 10y ago

singularity2001 10y ago
OT: This guy is a poster child of horrible ergonomics https://ncmedia.azureedge.net/ncmedia/2016/10/Surface-Book-with-Performance-Base-Lifestyle-web.jpg https://ncmedia.azureedge.net/ncmedia/2016/10/Surface-Book-w...
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  Chair is too high, monitors are too forward if he has to lean forward like that (he needs glasses, really), keyboard and mouse are too high (which is why many desks have trays), and monitors are too low (neutral position looking forwards, the middle should be right in front of you), two monitors instead of three, the "middle" one of the duo not straight ahead, no mouse pad... So many sins.
  - Tepix 10y ago
    The monitors aren't too low on the picture! It's bad for your neck if you have to look up whereas looking down is OK.
    - stinos 10y ago
      Source please? And does this mean all those people bending their neck over their smartphone are OK? I always thought (because of the internet I guess, and because it makes most snese to me) looking down nor up is the best, but just straight forward. I.e. computer screen centered to the eyes vertically.
      - georgemcbay 10y ago
        I'm not the guy you are responding to, but from OSHA: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/components_monitors.html https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/compon... "Place monitor so top line of screen is at or below eye level." I've very commonly heard ergonomics experts suggest having the top bezel of your monitor be at eye level which seems like it would be about right for the person in the photo if he wasn't hunching over, which is a problem but seemingly not one related to the height of his monitors. I believe a constant extreme downward neck bend would be bad, the idea is that if the monitor's top is about eye level you can scan down to see it primarily just with your eyes without actually having to tilt your neck too much, which is quite different than the sort of extreme neck bending I believe you mean when it comes to certain types of cellphone usage.
        DiabloD3 10y ago
        I've seen the OSHA recommendation, but I don't agree with it. Maybe I'm just weird, but my neck hurts more having to tilt my head ever so slightly forward instead of leaving it neutral. Also, as a side effect, and maybe largely why I find it uncomfortable... it makes me aim wrong in FPSes due to perspective issues. I have mine where they are centered in my vision, and I don't move my head to look up and down, I just move my eyes.
- neves 10y ago
  But their new ergonomic keyboard looks really nice. Hope it works with other computers.
  - mmcconnell1618 10y ago
    Tech specs listed as Bluetooth 4 LE so I assume it will work cross platform
  - gcr 10y ago
    I have the "Microsoft Sculpt" keyboard, the older version. (Lovingly dubbed the "Batman" keyboard due to its resemblance to Batman's helmet) It looks like Microsoft addressed all the pain points: - An actual bluetooth device, so no need for the little wireless dongle. - Function keys are actual keys and not plastic buttons. Too bad they filled in the space in the middle. Oh well. Guess it's no longer a true Batman keyboard. But it's still the best I've used.
    - tszyn 10y ago
      They also fixed the 6-key block (the one with Home, End, etc.). The older version had a nonstandard layout. On the minus side, it has a non-detachable numpad, so you'll have to reach further to use your mouse.
      - lathiat 10y ago
        Relatively recent convert to the old sculpt ergonomic keyboard, which I love. The real escape key, and fn key to toggle the top row are likely to make me upgrade along with the standard home/page/arrow keys l, but it's a shame they dropped the tilt bar, integrated the numpad (particularly as I use a touchpad) and that colour makes me keep thinking the photos are bare 3D or clay renders. After reading about the rest of the presentation I realised that may have been intentional. I'm also going to miss the split.
dmfdmf 10y ago
Still trying to mimic Apple.
- guelo 10y ago
  Products Apple doesn't have: a big touch-screen desktop, a touch-screen laptop with detachable keyboard, that weird puck thing
  - iLoch 10y ago
    Has Apple announced a holographic computer yet? :)
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > that weird puck thing Hey! Apple has the One True Weird Puck Thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse
  - drusepth 10y ago
    >that weird puck thing Belkin makes them. They are continuous and have a pushbutton. They're like $130 or something ridiculous. I've only ever used them for tuning around in a software defined radio, but a lot of music/video editors use them as jog dials.
- zamalek 10y ago
  Microsoft's diversity message is the exact opposite of Apple's sameness execution.
- marsrover 10y ago
  Apple is often worth being mimicked and when it comes to form factor, doubly so. However, I think this comment is shortsighted and completely devalues everything Microsoft is coming out with lately. They have added things to their products that Apple has yet to add, and they're making innovative jumps that Apple is scared to make.
  - 10y ago
danso 10y ago
After seeing the Surface Studio, it's hard to imagine what Apple can produce that will compete on the "wow" factor tomorrow, even if the Studio ends up not quite delivering for its price. It definitely set a bar for what we might expect with an innovative brand. I say this as a long time Apple customer who would actually just be fine if they released a new external monitor. I haven't been able to find a decent non-Apple monitor that doesn't exhibit wonky behavior when connected to my MBP (this includes the small things, such as responding to the Brightness function key)
- carlmcqueen 10y ago
  I have to say I second this sentiment. It is in line with my feelings while watching the demo. Even though I get PCs for gaming and data science on the side for non-profits (not big data, for the most part). The wow factor of this computer for me will likely wipe out a 'swipe bar' added to the macbook pro and some 'better' (read: not years old) internal upgrades. If Apple insults us with yet again no monitor update, it's going to be huge.
- lloeki 10y ago
  > (this includes the small things, such as responding to the Brightness function key) The sad part — that seems to play yet again — is that there's a standard just for that: DDC/CI. But none of the GPU vendors nor display vendors care enough to make it work reliably, if at all (apparently it's mostly used for automated display calibration, so if you fall out of that use case, tough luck). I effectively hacked quite a lot of things around it, and ended up frying a couple gfx cards, because you can easily shoot yourself in the foot, write to the wrong part, and end up with a PCI card as useful as a waffle, only inedible. In the end I managed to pass some commands in very specific scenarios, but behaviours ended up highly dependent on the GPU, display, and combinations thereof I had available (from nothing, to glitchy screen, to aforementioned waffle, but it did work in one specific case \o/).
  - milankragujevic 10y ago
    Is it really that hard? My shit Phillips VGA monitors brightness can be controlled with software via an AMD E350 APU that I used to have...
josho 10y ago
I find it interesting that Msft is choosing to battle Apple head on in the consumer space, I recall Sun Tzu "attack where your enemy is weak". Yet, msft is attacking Apple at their most loyal user base—designers. Not only that but the machines, at a glance, resemble Apple's, so there is little physical differentiation. Is aluminum gray the only color for computers these days? This strategy strikes me as incredibly odd, I wonder if anyone here sees the angle that I'm missing.
- msabalau 10y ago
  Traditionally designers have been Apple's strongest supporters. But there has been a fair bit of grumbling about Apple abandoning power users in favor of consumers and an iOS focus. If Apple isn't inclined to make investments in supporting the segment, Microsoft is as well placed as anyone to go after it.
- egypturnash 10y ago
  Hi, I'm a pro artist. I've been an Apple zombie for a long time. Since like 2000 when I finally retired my beloved Amiga. Windows does everything the "wrong" way from the perspective of my habits. Yet I would be using a Surface 4 for most of my art nowadays if not for the fact that Adobe Illustrator, my main tool, doesn't talk to the Surface's NTrig stylus properly. So I'm still hauling around a four-year-old Air and a Wacom tablet. I have been ready to give Apple money for a new machine to do my work on for about a year now and they haven't put out anything that's worth bothering with for me. And when's the last time Apple updated their super-high-end desktop machines for the Serious Major Power Users? They've been focusing on phones and tablets, and that leaves the segment of the market whose work is "using Serious Art Power Tools" unserved. Unless Apple's announcement tomorrow has something in it like "oh hey we finally decided to build a tablet that can run desktop apps" I'm probably gonna be pretty meh about it. And the rumors all point to "new Pro lappy with a touch panel instead of the f-keys", which is about as exciting to me as a lukewarm glass of milk. I do not pretend to speak for all artists. Just for myself.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
pbz 10y ago
What I find disappointing is that they emphasized how the base is quiet and yet they're using a HDD (hybrid)?!... in a $3K machine... You can get 1TB SSD for $300. Where is all that $3K going?
- cfjgvjh 10y ago
  A significant portion is going to the panel and the stand, probably.
filereaper 10y ago
Microsoft seems to be going through a second renaissance right now, exciting times!
heinrich5991 10y ago
Clicking any of the links at the top gives me Your connection is not secure The owner of mnc.ms has configured their website improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website. mnc.ms uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is only valid for the following names: *.po.st, po.st Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN
erjjones 10y ago
Guarantee they release a 3D printer in the next 12 months. I wonder who they are going to acquire to fill that void?
outworlder 10y ago
Microsoft has always made nice hardware. Until recently, that has been limited to simple devices (like keyboards and mice). That has definitely changed. I was pretty excited about the Surface Book when it came out (I'm an Apple fan). But I was unsure if that line would continue. That fact that it has been refreshed is good news. The only thing that's missing is being able to plug an external video card (like the Alienware and Razer laptops can do). Once they are able to do that, switching to the Book is a no-brainer. I like MacOS, but it's only worth so much (specially with the unix subsystem on Windows now). The one thing Microsoft needs to learn from Apple is how to design websites. The event URL is cluttered, the "fact sheets" are horrible.

74 points by kenrick95 10y ago

singularity2001 10y ago

OT: This guy is a poster child of horrible ergonomics https://ncmedia.azureedge.net/ncmedia/2016/10/Surface-Book-with-Performance-Base-Lifestyle-web.jpg https://ncmedia.azureedge.net/ncmedia/2016/10/Surface-Book-w...

DiabloD3 10y ago
Chair is too high, monitors are too forward if he has to lean forward like that (he needs glasses, really), keyboard and mouse are too high (which is why many desks have trays), and monitors are too low (neutral position looking forwards, the middle should be right in front of you), two monitors instead of three, the "middle" one of the duo not straight ahead, no mouse pad... So many sins.
- Tepix 10y ago
  The monitors aren't too low on the picture! It's bad for your neck if you have to look up whereas looking down is OK.
  - stinos 10y ago
    Source please? And does this mean all those people bending their neck over their smartphone are OK? I always thought (because of the internet I guess, and because it makes most snese to me) looking down nor up is the best, but just straight forward. I.e. computer screen centered to the eyes vertically.
    - georgemcbay 10y ago
      I'm not the guy you are responding to, but from OSHA: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/components_monitors.html https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/compon... "Place monitor so top line of screen is at or below eye level." I've very commonly heard ergonomics experts suggest having the top bezel of your monitor be at eye level which seems like it would be about right for the person in the photo if he wasn't hunching over, which is a problem but seemingly not one related to the height of his monitors. I believe a constant extreme downward neck bend would be bad, the idea is that if the monitor's top is about eye level you can scan down to see it primarily just with your eyes without actually having to tilt your neck too much, which is quite different than the sort of extreme neck bending I believe you mean when it comes to certain types of cellphone usage.
      - DiabloD3 10y ago
        I've seen the OSHA recommendation, but I don't agree with it. Maybe I'm just weird, but my neck hurts more having to tilt my head ever so slightly forward instead of leaving it neutral. Also, as a side effect, and maybe largely why I find it uncomfortable... it makes me aim wrong in FPSes due to perspective issues. I have mine where they are centered in my vision, and I don't move my head to look up and down, I just move my eyes.
neves 10y ago
But their new ergonomic keyboard looks really nice. Hope it works with other computers.
- mmcconnell1618 10y ago
  Tech specs listed as Bluetooth 4 LE so I assume it will work cross platform
- gcr 10y ago
  I have the "Microsoft Sculpt" keyboard, the older version. (Lovingly dubbed the "Batman" keyboard due to its resemblance to Batman's helmet) It looks like Microsoft addressed all the pain points: - An actual bluetooth device, so no need for the little wireless dongle. - Function keys are actual keys and not plastic buttons. Too bad they filled in the space in the middle. Oh well. Guess it's no longer a true Batman keyboard. But it's still the best I've used.
  - tszyn 10y ago
    They also fixed the 6-key block (the one with Home, End, etc.). The older version had a nonstandard layout. On the minus side, it has a non-detachable numpad, so you'll have to reach further to use your mouse.
    - lathiat 10y ago
      Relatively recent convert to the old sculpt ergonomic keyboard, which I love. The real escape key, and fn key to toggle the top row are likely to make me upgrade along with the standard home/page/arrow keys l, but it's a shame they dropped the tilt bar, integrated the numpad (particularly as I use a touchpad) and that colour makes me keep thinking the photos are bare 3D or clay renders. After reading about the rest of the presentation I realised that may have been intentional. I'm also going to miss the split.

dmfdmf 10y ago

Still trying to mimic Apple.

guelo 10y ago
Products Apple doesn't have: a big touch-screen desktop, a touch-screen laptop with detachable keyboard, that weird puck thing
- iLoch 10y ago
  Has Apple announced a holographic computer yet? :)
- masklinn 10y ago
  > that weird puck thing Hey! Apple has the One True Weird Puck Thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse
- drusepth 10y ago
  >that weird puck thing Belkin makes them. They are continuous and have a pushbutton. They're like $130 or something ridiculous. I've only ever used them for tuning around in a software defined radio, but a lot of music/video editors use them as jog dials.
zamalek 10y ago
Microsoft's diversity message is the exact opposite of Apple's sameness execution.
marsrover 10y ago
Apple is often worth being mimicked and when it comes to form factor, doubly so. However, I think this comment is shortsighted and completely devalues everything Microsoft is coming out with lately. They have added things to their products that Apple has yet to add, and they're making innovative jumps that Apple is scared to make.
- 10y ago

danso 10y ago

After seeing the Surface Studio, it's hard to imagine what Apple can produce that will compete on the "wow" factor tomorrow, even if the Studio ends up not quite delivering for its price. It definitely set a bar for what we might expect with an innovative brand. I say this as a long time Apple customer who would actually just be fine if they released a new external monitor. I haven't been able to find a decent non-Apple monitor that doesn't exhibit wonky behavior when connected to my MBP (this includes the small things, such as responding to the Brightness function key)

carlmcqueen 10y ago
I have to say I second this sentiment. It is in line with my feelings while watching the demo. Even though I get PCs for gaming and data science on the side for non-profits (not big data, for the most part). The wow factor of this computer for me will likely wipe out a 'swipe bar' added to the macbook pro and some 'better' (read: not years old) internal upgrades. If Apple insults us with yet again no monitor update, it's going to be huge.
lloeki 10y ago
> (this includes the small things, such as responding to the Brightness function key) The sad part — that seems to play yet again — is that there's a standard just for that: DDC/CI. But none of the GPU vendors nor display vendors care enough to make it work reliably, if at all (apparently it's mostly used for automated display calibration, so if you fall out of that use case, tough luck). I effectively hacked quite a lot of things around it, and ended up frying a couple gfx cards, because you can easily shoot yourself in the foot, write to the wrong part, and end up with a PCI card as useful as a waffle, only inedible. In the end I managed to pass some commands in very specific scenarios, but behaviours ended up highly dependent on the GPU, display, and combinations thereof I had available (from nothing, to glitchy screen, to aforementioned waffle, but it did work in one specific case \o/).
- milankragujevic 10y ago
  Is it really that hard? My shit Phillips VGA monitors brightness can be controlled with software via an AMD E350 APU that I used to have...

josho 10y ago

I find it interesting that Msft is choosing to battle Apple head on in the consumer space, I recall Sun Tzu "attack where your enemy is weak". Yet, msft is attacking Apple at their most loyal user base—designers. Not only that but the machines, at a glance, resemble Apple's, so there is little physical differentiation. Is aluminum gray the only color for computers these days? This strategy strikes me as incredibly odd, I wonder if anyone here sees the angle that I'm missing.

msabalau 10y ago
Traditionally designers have been Apple's strongest supporters. But there has been a fair bit of grumbling about Apple abandoning power users in favor of consumers and an iOS focus. If Apple isn't inclined to make investments in supporting the segment, Microsoft is as well placed as anyone to go after it.
egypturnash 10y ago
Hi, I'm a pro artist. I've been an Apple zombie for a long time. Since like 2000 when I finally retired my beloved Amiga. Windows does everything the "wrong" way from the perspective of my habits. Yet I would be using a Surface 4 for most of my art nowadays if not for the fact that Adobe Illustrator, my main tool, doesn't talk to the Surface's NTrig stylus properly. So I'm still hauling around a four-year-old Air and a Wacom tablet. I have been ready to give Apple money for a new machine to do my work on for about a year now and they haven't put out anything that's worth bothering with for me. And when's the last time Apple updated their super-high-end desktop machines for the Serious Major Power Users? They've been focusing on phones and tablets, and that leaves the segment of the market whose work is "using Serious Art Power Tools" unserved. Unless Apple's announcement tomorrow has something in it like "oh hey we finally decided to build a tablet that can run desktop apps" I'm probably gonna be pretty meh about it. And the rumors all point to "new Pro lappy with a touch panel instead of the f-keys", which is about as exciting to me as a lukewarm glass of milk. I do not pretend to speak for all artists. Just for myself.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

pbz 10y ago

What I find disappointing is that they emphasized how the base is quiet and yet they're using a HDD (hybrid)?!... in a $3K machine... You can get 1TB SSD for $300. Where is all that $3K going?

cfjgvjh 10y ago
A significant portion is going to the panel and the stand, probably.

filereaper 10y ago

Microsoft seems to be going through a second renaissance right now, exciting times!

heinrich5991 10y ago

Clicking any of the links at the top gives me Your connection is not secure The owner of mnc.ms has configured their website improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website. mnc.ms uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is only valid for the following names: *.po.st, po.st Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN

erjjones 10y ago

Guarantee they release a 3D printer in the next 12 months. I wonder who they are going to acquire to fill that void?

outworlder 10y ago

Microsoft has always made nice hardware. Until recently, that has been limited to simple devices (like keyboards and mice). That has definitely changed. I was pretty excited about the Surface Book when it came out (I'm an Apple fan). But I was unsure if that line would continue. That fact that it has been refreshed is good news. The only thing that's missing is being able to plug an external video card (like the Alienware and Razer laptops can do). Once they are able to do that, switching to the Book is a no-brainer. I like MacOS, but it's only worth so much (specially with the unix subsystem on Windows now). The one thing Microsoft needs to learn from Apple is how to design websites. The event URL is cluttered, the "fact sheets" are horrible.