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I'll copy the points of interest from the original post verbatim and reply in kind. > I always hear about the mythical intelligent religious person but somehow
by sturgill 10y ago
I'll copy the points of interest from the original post verbatim and reply in kind.
> I always hear about the mythical intelligent religious person but somehow, they remain elusive.
I offered myself as a simple example. I'm neither the smartest guy nor the best Christian, but I consider myself reasonably intelligent and I try hard to live by my beliefs. I also offered several other historical counterexamples.
I don't see a statistical argument here. But it could be my religion showing.
Many of the founders of modern philosophy believed in some form of a Supreme Being. I would venture to say that this is true of most of human history up until the last 20-30 years. Whether from cultural influences, expectations, or otherwise, many of the smartest people in history have had some religious belief. That religious belief may not have been mainstream or consistent with the dominant theology of the era (see America's founding fathers and the prevalence of Deism), but there is a conspicuous absence of outright atheism.
Even in more modern times you see very intelligent people with some form of religious belief. From Newton, to Einstein, to Godel, to C S Lewis: these were very smart people who also had belief in some form of God. You don't have to agree with everything they thought or said, but you would be wrong to say they were not intelligent.
In short, intelligent religious people certainly aren't "mythical."
> As a general rule, religiosity goes down as intelligence goes up.
The thesis that there is an inverse relationship between religion and intelligence is not evident when you look at the arc of human history. And if you take the most charitable view: "Of people who are alive today, there is an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence" there is no proof of causation.
For the sake of argument, I'll consent that there is a growing divide between "religious" and "intelligent." Given that the preponderance of evidence suggests that intelligence is largely hereditary, what would explain this shift?
One could argue that expanding our understanding of the universe is responsible for this divide. That as people know more they believe less. But that doesn't appear to pan out when you look at a longer view of human history. Did the Newton's of the past become less religious as their knowledge increased? I don't see it.
It seems more likely that this divide is unique (or at least more sharply pronounced) in today's society. It could be that this is because it is more acceptable in today's world to be harshly critical of belief in general. That is, while there have always been fighting between sects it was not socially acceptable to be hostile towards belief in general. This is an interesting argument, but is not dismissable nor provable.
It could just as easily be that the growing availability of universities and colleges (that are widely more liberal than the general population) impacts impressionable 18-22 years olds who are branching out on their own for the first time. That a growing proportion of intelligent people are being exposed to anti-religious zealots in the form of their mentors at a very impressionable time.
Show me the statistical argument for one vs the other and we can have a debate centered around numbers. Flaming me for providing counterexamples to an offensive and hyperbolic comment hardly seems like a rational counterpoint. To point your question back to you: what does it say about your position that you can't reason about it?
- berntb 10y ago>> Show me the statistical argument for one vs the other The research shows a correlation between intelligence(/education) and not being religious. 30 seconds with Google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_belief_and_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#S... >> Even in more modern times you see very intelligent people with some form of religious belief. From Newton, to Einstein, to Godel, to C S Lewis I already discussed the problems with arguing single data points for statistical correlations. See my comment on the brother comment of yours. Again: There seem to be less correlation between intelligence and rationality than we usually think. (At least, as I thought when I was young enough to still have hair. :-) ) (So I am not going to touch the personal arguments. Let me just note that your examples are flawed. Einstein called himself "agnostic": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Eins... Newton was, well, quite crazy. :-) Also, he was hardly modern, he lived long before evolution was known. Before that, you really needed some form of designer to explain life. C S Lewis' analytical self reflection don't impress. A bunch of years ago, I read part of a biography and how he chose religion in WWI. His motivation was flawed. Literature insight is something else than rationality. That said, some of my intellectual idols are religious. E.g. Knuth and Larry Wall.)
- sturgill 10y agoReading the link you provided (and admittedly not doing any other research on the subject while on the company's time), this struck me as relevant: > Controlling for other factors, they can only confidently show strong negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity among American Protestants. So... American Protestants. Okay. In the scope of living people, that's... quite specific. >> I already discussed the problems with arguing single data points for statistical correlations. My use of these examples was not to counteract a statistical argument, but the opening sentence: >>> I always hear about the mythical intelligent religious person but somehow, they remain elusive. The rest of your rebuttal also appears to misunderstand my use of the specific examples. It was a simple exercise in showing that religious intellectuals are not a mythical creature.