7 ms·

Having worked with PE civil engineers out of college I can confirm they don't do anything new. Civil engineering at this point is pouring concrete. Concrete i

Having worked with PE civil engineers out of college I can confirm they don't do anything new. Civil engineering at this point is pouring concrete. Concrete is an understood material. They mainly deal with permitting, fixing a cad drawings and arguing with architects (who are also not doing anything new). Once and a great while they do something new like expand the bay bridge. Then you get to see civil engineers try to solve an actual problem. A decade(?) of work on a bridge that could have been completed quicker in 1929.

jacquesm 10y ago
Civil engineering just pouring concrete? The plan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmWmRQ1_uAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmWmRQ1_uAE Reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L32wC2qNAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L32wC2qNAY
- ransom1538 10y ago
  You posted a video of people moving something heavy with wheels. I guess in the civil engineering world: amazing!
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    I think you slightly missed the point there. The video is of a bridge designed to span a highway that was to be expanded from 2x4 to 2x5 lanes + an emergency lane on both sides with minimal interruption to existing road and rail traffic. The decision was made to construct the bridge off to the side of the road on a separate spot, then to create a special purpose roadway across the road to the location where the bridge would be placed. And finally, to move the bridge from the construction site to the final destination in one piece. The whole thing was conceived and executed according to plan, including a < 24 hour closure of the road and one week of interruption on the rail line (it was not possible for many reasons to have the track installed prior to moving the bridge). That is engineering. In the 'move fast and break stuff' world that would be 'move fast and kill people'. If this were software we'd be looking at a multi-year software project with a few hundred programmers delivered on-time, within the budget and working flawlessly on the day of delivery. I have yet to see such a project. But as you say, 'Amazing!', the fact that you make it seem like this is 'no big deal' is exactly what is so good about it, you fully expected it to work didn't you? The trick apparently is to make the complex and impressive stuff look so boring, I really wished that we could make software look that boring.
    - msandford 10y ago
      NASA does that regularly. They're seemingly the only people who can afford it. If bridges had scope creep the way software does, every bridge would start out 1 lane each way and be 6 lanes double decker in the middle before all lanes fly in different directions towards different cities, much less the other side of the river. I hear what you're saying about using tried-and-true methods. But nothing else has scope creep like software does, because basically nothing else is design-only. That's why software is so crazy. It's ALL design. There's no manufacturing at any point. You can manufacture infinite copies for almost free, i.e. compile and copy and install. If you could go from bridge design in CAD to actual working bridge in meatspace in ~30 seconds and for $0.01 then yeah, there'd be millions of horrible, horrible bridges EVERYWHERE. The fact that the design of the bridge takes a year or two and a few million compared to the 2-5 (or 10) years and billions to actually manufacture it means that you can design, redesign, and redesign again until you get a design that'll actually work and it barely moves the needle on the total price tag. But in software, if you redesign and it doubles the amount of time to complete the project, you just doubled the cost at least. If it were possible to make software better, faster, cheaper by just imposing some discipline, why haven't dozens of companies done so and taken over the world?
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        > If you could go from bridge design in CAD to actual working bridge in meatspace in ~30 seconds and for $0.01 then yeah, there'd be millions of horrible, horrible bridges EVERYWHERE. That's a fantastic and well made point. It's akin to the cost of communications dropping over time. When moving words around the world was expensive people tended to stick to the important stuff, but now that the cost has essentially dropped to 0 we are drowning in irrelevant information. > If it were possible to make software better, faster, cheaper by just imposing some discipline, why haven't dozens of companies done so and taken over the world? Because the it likely is more than just 'some discipline' and because the market forces are working against you, after all nobody even expects software to be reliable so your competitor going to market with unreliable junk will eat your lunch if you slow down long enough to get it right, assuming you know what to build in the first place.
  - snowwindwaves 10y ago
    There is no iterating in civil engineering, it is built right the first time. They made a plan to build a replacement railway bridge over a highway and install it with a short interruption in rail and highway use and executed that plan. I think that is an impressive feat of engineering as well as management.
    - spacemanmatt 10y ago
      There's no iterating a bridge already built but the maintenance, inspection, and thinking around making difficult repair-or-replace decisions continues to evolve in feedback with analytical and management software.
    - slavik81 10y ago
      "Built right the first time" does not match the stories I hear from my civil engineering friends. There's a reason that as-built design docs are provided. They're frequently different than the originals.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        That doesn't mean they build it twice, it reflects updated information based on materials availability or changing requirements or conditions being different from initial assumptions. Exactly the kind of problems that software people tend to claim as their own personal and unique kind of challenge. But all engineering efforts are subject to those kind of challenges.
        slavik81 10y ago
        Or simply incorrect design. Like putting electrical panels so close to the wall that the cables can't physically bend to reach the inlet. Or incorrect construction, like driving a pile in the wrong place and just adding the extra to the design. I definitely agree. Things don't always work out as planned in any discipline of engineering. My personal experience was mechanical and electrical manufacturing, and it held true there too.
spacemanmatt 10y ago
I work for a CE-facing ERP company, and our clients are PEs mostly working for state DOTs. They are actually advancing the state of the art on cost control, roadway safety, etc. using analytical decision-steering systems. It would be a mistake to overlook the value of what's being done just to maintain the status-quo against a pretty dynamic business landscape, much less to make progress. As a software/data nerd, I am suitably impressed by what I see as a vendor-to-insiders.
- cgvgffyv 10y ago
  > analytical decision-steering systems nice way to say, "the computer is doing my job for me". which is all well and good, mind. Now if only doctors had that. Where are the expert systems of the 70s, the ones I read about in AI books?
  - spacemanmatt 10y ago
    Or a nice way to say they're making data-informed decisions when previously they lacked the apparatus from collection to analysis to policy.
  - rpeden 10y ago
    Is Watson Health[1] anything like the systems you're talking about? [1] https://www.ibm.com/watson/health/ https://www.ibm.com/watson/health/
    - spacemanmatt 10y ago
      Sorry for the late reply -- no, Watson is well ahead of what I'm working with. Like, a generation or two ahead. I think it's helpful to mention that many organizations don't even have the best of what the 1990s could offer; they are still struggling with custom integration of 5+ "system" suites, and the technical baggage of just keeping that working so people get paid and inventory management can happen. They aspire to use fancier algorithms on data they don't yet have with good quality, to provide faster/better/cheaper service to their stakeholders. The state of the art for the agencies I serve is what I would casually describe to a HN audience as a data pipeline that often ends in an Oracle database, then a handful of web/mobile apps that should be rebuilt with Google Maps. Not rocket surgery, but they're truly in a tight spot in terms of budget to swap out systems already in play with better ones that face the future rather than the past. Phew, I didn't know I had that much to say on the topic.

jacquesm 10y ago

Civil engineering just pouring concrete? The plan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmWmRQ1_uAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmWmRQ1_uAE Reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L32wC2qNAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L32wC2qNAY

ransom1538 10y ago
You posted a video of people moving something heavy with wheels. I guess in the civil engineering world: amazing!
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I think you slightly missed the point there. The video is of a bridge designed to span a highway that was to be expanded from 2x4 to 2x5 lanes + an emergency lane on both sides with minimal interruption to existing road and rail traffic. The decision was made to construct the bridge off to the side of the road on a separate spot, then to create a special purpose roadway across the road to the location where the bridge would be placed. And finally, to move the bridge from the construction site to the final destination in one piece. The whole thing was conceived and executed according to plan, including a < 24 hour closure of the road and one week of interruption on the rail line (it was not possible for many reasons to have the track installed prior to moving the bridge). That is engineering. In the 'move fast and break stuff' world that would be 'move fast and kill people'. If this were software we'd be looking at a multi-year software project with a few hundred programmers delivered on-time, within the budget and working flawlessly on the day of delivery. I have yet to see such a project. But as you say, 'Amazing!', the fact that you make it seem like this is 'no big deal' is exactly what is so good about it, you fully expected it to work didn't you? The trick apparently is to make the complex and impressive stuff look so boring, I really wished that we could make software look that boring.
  - msandford 10y ago
    NASA does that regularly. They're seemingly the only people who can afford it. If bridges had scope creep the way software does, every bridge would start out 1 lane each way and be 6 lanes double decker in the middle before all lanes fly in different directions towards different cities, much less the other side of the river. I hear what you're saying about using tried-and-true methods. But nothing else has scope creep like software does, because basically nothing else is design-only. That's why software is so crazy. It's ALL design. There's no manufacturing at any point. You can manufacture infinite copies for almost free, i.e. compile and copy and install. If you could go from bridge design in CAD to actual working bridge in meatspace in ~30 seconds and for $0.01 then yeah, there'd be millions of horrible, horrible bridges EVERYWHERE. The fact that the design of the bridge takes a year or two and a few million compared to the 2-5 (or 10) years and billions to actually manufacture it means that you can design, redesign, and redesign again until you get a design that'll actually work and it barely moves the needle on the total price tag. But in software, if you redesign and it doubles the amount of time to complete the project, you just doubled the cost at least. If it were possible to make software better, faster, cheaper by just imposing some discipline, why haven't dozens of companies done so and taken over the world?
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      > If you could go from bridge design in CAD to actual working bridge in meatspace in ~30 seconds and for $0.01 then yeah, there'd be millions of horrible, horrible bridges EVERYWHERE. That's a fantastic and well made point. It's akin to the cost of communications dropping over time. When moving words around the world was expensive people tended to stick to the important stuff, but now that the cost has essentially dropped to 0 we are drowning in irrelevant information. > If it were possible to make software better, faster, cheaper by just imposing some discipline, why haven't dozens of companies done so and taken over the world? Because the it likely is more than just 'some discipline' and because the market forces are working against you, after all nobody even expects software to be reliable so your competitor going to market with unreliable junk will eat your lunch if you slow down long enough to get it right, assuming you know what to build in the first place.
- snowwindwaves 10y ago
  There is no iterating in civil engineering, it is built right the first time. They made a plan to build a replacement railway bridge over a highway and install it with a short interruption in rail and highway use and executed that plan. I think that is an impressive feat of engineering as well as management.
  - spacemanmatt 10y ago
    There's no iterating a bridge already built but the maintenance, inspection, and thinking around making difficult repair-or-replace decisions continues to evolve in feedback with analytical and management software.
  - slavik81 10y ago
    "Built right the first time" does not match the stories I hear from my civil engineering friends. There's a reason that as-built design docs are provided. They're frequently different than the originals.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      That doesn't mean they build it twice, it reflects updated information based on materials availability or changing requirements or conditions being different from initial assumptions. Exactly the kind of problems that software people tend to claim as their own personal and unique kind of challenge. But all engineering efforts are subject to those kind of challenges.
      - slavik81 10y ago
        Or simply incorrect design. Like putting electrical panels so close to the wall that the cables can't physically bend to reach the inlet. Or incorrect construction, like driving a pile in the wrong place and just adding the extra to the design. I definitely agree. Things don't always work out as planned in any discipline of engineering. My personal experience was mechanical and electrical manufacturing, and it held true there too.

spacemanmatt 10y ago

I work for a CE-facing ERP company, and our clients are PEs mostly working for state DOTs. They are actually advancing the state of the art on cost control, roadway safety, etc. using analytical decision-steering systems. It would be a mistake to overlook the value of what's being done just to maintain the status-quo against a pretty dynamic business landscape, much less to make progress. As a software/data nerd, I am suitably impressed by what I see as a vendor-to-insiders.

cgvgffyv 10y ago
> analytical decision-steering systems nice way to say, "the computer is doing my job for me". which is all well and good, mind. Now if only doctors had that. Where are the expert systems of the 70s, the ones I read about in AI books?
- spacemanmatt 10y ago
  Or a nice way to say they're making data-informed decisions when previously they lacked the apparatus from collection to analysis to policy.
- rpeden 10y ago
  Is Watson Health[1] anything like the systems you're talking about? [1] https://www.ibm.com/watson/health/ https://www.ibm.com/watson/health/
  - spacemanmatt 10y ago
    Sorry for the late reply -- no, Watson is well ahead of what I'm working with. Like, a generation or two ahead. I think it's helpful to mention that many organizations don't even have the best of what the 1990s could offer; they are still struggling with custom integration of 5+ "system" suites, and the technical baggage of just keeping that working so people get paid and inventory management can happen. They aspire to use fancier algorithms on data they don't yet have with good quality, to provide faster/better/cheaper service to their stakeholders. The state of the art for the agencies I serve is what I would casually describe to a HN audience as a data pipeline that often ends in an Oracle database, then a handful of web/mobile apps that should be rebuilt with Google Maps. Not rocket surgery, but they're truly in a tight spot in terms of budget to swap out systems already in play with better ones that face the future rather than the past. Phew, I didn't know I had that much to say on the topic.