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The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard.

by Kenji 10y ago

The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. Get your facts straight. Norway has compulsory conscription. So does Switzerland. So does Turkey (well, after what's happened there in the last few years, you truly cannot consider it 'western' anymore, but it's a country that wants into the EU). Germany only very recently suspended conscription. It is still a problem. Israel is one of the few countries where I can at least see why they have conscription, they permanently have to be on guard because they are surrounded by countries whose leaders are outspoken about wanting to eradicate them completely.

dogma1138 10y ago
Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also important to be mentioned that many countries that practice conscription also offer a "civil service" path including Switzerland which means you can be conscripted to the police, firefighters/EMT, and even into social work. And TBH I'm actually a big supporter of "conscription" at least the Civil Service/Zivildienst type where young men and women are "forced" to give 1 or 2 years of their life to better society, it doesn't mean they are or should be sent to war, but I do find the idea of a compulsory paid community service somewhat appealing. And no I don't count Turkey as a western country any more since it's political, judicial and educational systems have been gutted and there is virtually no more free press left in the country.
- Kenji 10y ago
  Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. No such thing is happening in Switzerland. At all. There might be some discussion about it, but if so, it's not serious. I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    >That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I have family and friends in Norway there are tons of easy way outs, they don't even call the majority of people if you don't show up or refuse early they don't bother asking you twice. I don't know what happened to your friend but it could be that he agreed, signed up and then regretted it. "Norway employs a weak form of mandatory military service for men and women. While 63,841 men and women were called in for the examination of persons liable for military service in 2012 (mandatory for men), 9265 were conscripted.[6] In 2015 conscription was extended to women making Norway the first NATO member and first European country to make national service compulsory for both men and women.[7] There is a right of conscientious objection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces#cite_note-Norwegian_Armed_Forces_-_Conscription_Statistics-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces#cite_no... >I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors. Well then we have a different set of values on one's role in society, I believe that civil service needs to be highly encouraged if not mandatory, I would even put something like a voluntary social year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year) as a mandatory activity in a university or college and some institutions do have that where you need to vulenteer for a few semesters during your degree.
    - Kenji 10y ago
      That's funny how that works in Norway. In Switzerland, if you ignore all the letters of conscription you get fines and after some years, you will be visited by two very kind policemen who put you in prison. Hmm, that is interesting. What is the benefit of such a social year, as opposed to having the youngsters start either an apprenticeship, where they can learn a trade, or continue and finish their education, and then get into the workforce? If such social labour has to be done, it should be paid accordingly and people should not be forced to do it in my eyes.

by Kenji 10y ago

dogma1138 10y ago

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also important to be mentioned that many countries that practice conscription also offer a "civil service" path including Switzerland which means you can be conscripted to the police, firefighters/EMT, and even into social work. And TBH I'm actually a big supporter of "conscription" at least the Civil Service/Zivildienst type where young men and women are "forced" to give 1 or 2 years of their life to better society, it doesn't mean they are or should be sent to war, but I do find the idea of a compulsory paid community service somewhat appealing. And no I don't count Turkey as a western country any more since it's political, judicial and educational systems have been gutted and there is virtually no more free press left in the country.

Kenji 10y ago
Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. No such thing is happening in Switzerland. At all. There might be some discussion about it, but if so, it's not serious. I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  >That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I have family and friends in Norway there are tons of easy way outs, they don't even call the majority of people if you don't show up or refuse early they don't bother asking you twice. I don't know what happened to your friend but it could be that he agreed, signed up and then regretted it. "Norway employs a weak form of mandatory military service for men and women. While 63,841 men and women were called in for the examination of persons liable for military service in 2012 (mandatory for men), 9265 were conscripted.[6] In 2015 conscription was extended to women making Norway the first NATO member and first European country to make national service compulsory for both men and women.[7] There is a right of conscientious objection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces#cite_note-Norwegian_Armed_Forces_-_Conscription_Statistics-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces#cite_no... >I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors. Well then we have a different set of values on one's role in society, I believe that civil service needs to be highly encouraged if not mandatory, I would even put something like a voluntary social year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year) as a mandatory activity in a university or college and some institutions do have that where you need to vulenteer for a few semesters during your degree.
  - Kenji 10y ago
    That's funny how that works in Norway. In Switzerland, if you ignore all the letters of conscription you get fines and after some years, you will be visited by two very kind policemen who put you in prison. Hmm, that is interesting. What is the benefit of such a social year, as opposed to having the youngsters start either an apprenticeship, where they can learn a trade, or continue and finish their education, and then get into the workforce? If such social labour has to be done, it should be paid accordingly and people should not be forced to do it in my eyes.